The Vatican And Its Left-Wing Critics

[Mr Pee]

Doobeedoobeedoo - Sinatra

Do you find it impossible to post a comment with no valuable content?

[ahinton]

There's a world of difference between habitually posting comments without valuable comment and posting just one such for a particular effect.

[Mr Pee]

There's a world of difference between habitually posting comments without valuable comment and posting just one such for a particular effect.

I agree. Perhaps amateur will get the message one day. The vast majority of his posts are pointless and - despite his attempts at humour - unfunny, which do no more than continually re-cycle his leftie world-view. As AIC demonstrated in an earlier post.

[scottycelt]

Maybe, maybe not, but certain branches of it might appear rather more in tune with the Vienna Philharmonic in the light of its treatment of and attitudes towards women members.

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The rules (current and former) of the Vienna Phil are/were no business of you and I, ahinton!

Here's a poser for you:

If you felt the Vienna Phil performed better with a same-sex membership rather than its current mixture would you still opt for the latter?

In any case we already have the Bay Area Women's Philharmonic Orchestra and even the excellent San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus.

I am all for such freedom and genuine equality so good luck to them all !

[anotherbob]

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I am all for such freedom and genuine equality...

... except for women in the catholic church?

[scottycelt]

... except for women in the catholic church?

There are millions of women in the Catholic Church!

As I've already said the Church is not 'democratic' in the secular sense. Men and women have separate roles. A woman cannot become a priest or bishop. I cannot become a nun or Mother Superior.

I believe I'm being wholly consistent. I support the Church's right to form its own rules and also that of the Vienna & Bay Area Women's Philharmonic Orchestras and the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus.

Each has the right (or should have) to form it's own rules regarding membership without interference from outside.

As I said, I am all for that kind of freedom and equality!

[ahinton]

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The rules (current and former) of the Vienna Phil are/were no business of you and I, ahinton!

But that doesn't mean that we cannot have opinions about them!

Here's a poser for you:

If you felt the Vienna Phil performed better with a same-sex membership rather than its current mixture would you still opt for the latter?

I wouldn't call you a poser, scotty, but how would it be possible for anyone realistically and reliably to determine that an all-male VPO performed better than one with a mix of males and females? What is nevertheless obvious is that, in making it so difficult for women to join the orchestra, VPO is not giving itself the best chance to recruit the finest musicians, any more than it would do, for example, were it to confine its membership to Austrians.

[ahinton]

There are millions of women in the Catholic Church!

But doing what?

As I've already said the Church is not 'democratic' in the secular sense. Men and women have separate roles. A woman cannot become a priest or bishop. I cannot become a nun or Mother Superior.

The term "Mother Superior" is itself one which determines that it be occupied by a female, but if the Church does not have a similar rôle entitled "Father Superior", the term effectively becomes sexist. We know that women can become priests but not bishops or archbishops in CofE and cannot fulfil any of these rôles within the Catholic Church, but that does not justify either Church's stance on this; why should the Church be wilfully and overtly "undemocratic" in this sense, particularly if continuing to be so means that it's not gaining access to all of the best talent for the rôles undertaken by its senior officers? OK, I know it's not the same as other professions, but if a woman has "the calling" and develops into someone as capable of being a Catholic Cardinal Archbishop or a CofE Archibishop, why should not only she be denied but also the Church deny itself that opportunity?

I believe I'm being wholly consistent. I support the Church's right to form its own rules...

Each has the right (or should have) to form it's own rules regarding membership without interference from outside.

As I said, I am all for that kind of freedom and equality!

The Church can form whatever rules it likes provided that it does not transgress secular laws in so doing; however, in persevering with this particular one, in discouraging women from participation in the higher offices of the Church it is at the same time discouraging those women from participation in the Church per se; would you say that this is a good idea and to the benefit of the Church, particularly to the extent that it sends out all the wrong messages to women in general?

[amateur51]

The dreadful Melanie Phillips uses it all the time. It's impossible to take her opinions seriously when they are underpinned by such shaky logical foundations.

Oh please, spare me the vision of exhausted undergarments of agonised rectitude

[amateur51]

I agree. Perhaps amateur will get the message one day. The vast majority of his posts are pointless and - despite his attempts at humour - unfunny, which do no more than continually re-cycle his leftie world-view. As AIC demonstrated in an earlier post.

To the quick, to the very quick I tells ya

I'll take no remonstrations and certainly no advice from you about content Peester

[scottycelt]

But doing what?

Working, ahinton. Some women do work, you know, and don't forever sit around drinking coffee at home ...

The term "Mother Superior" is itself one which determines that it be occupied by a female, but if the Church does not have a similar rôle entitled "Father Superior", the term effectively becomes sexist.

Well a priest is called 'Father' and the Pope is called 'Holy Father'.

The Church can form whatever rules it likes provided that it does not transgress secular laws in so doing; however, in persevering with this particular one, in discouraging women from participation in the higher offices of the Church it is at the same time discouraging those women from participation in the Church per se; would you say that this is a good idea and to the benefit of the Church, particularly to the extent that it sends out all the wrong messages to women in general?

But you are not a member of this organisation, ahinton. You can have any opinion you like about the organisation and think the rules are thoroughly daft .Most women members appear to quite happily accept the rules so they would not appear to be getting the same messages as you seem to think they get?

[Julien Sorel]

Christianity has never claimed to be a democratic club like the Berlin Philharmonic.

Maybe not, and the Berlin Philharmonic wasn't around in the C17, but there have been and still are Christian groups which could be described as in a strong sense Communist (what Marxists sometimes annoyingly referred to as 'primitive communism'), certainly anti-hierarchical ... does it make sense to say Christianity has never claimed or has claimed anything? Do you really mean Catholicism has never claimed to be a democratic club?

Unless you're saying only Catholics are Christians? Personally I have a lot of time for the Levellers and the Diggers .

[amateur51]

But you are not a member of this organisation, ahinton. You can have any opinion you like about the organisation and think the rules are thoroughly daft .Most women members appear to quite happily accept the rules so they would not appear to be getting the same messages as you seem to think they get?

Which just goes to show how effective and long-lasting childhood indoctrination is

[amateur51]

Unless you're saying only Catholics are Christians? Personally I have a lot of time for the Levellers and the Diggers .

[ahinton]

Working, ahinton. Some women do work, you know, and don't forever sit around drinking coffee at home ...

But not in certain higher offices of the Church.

Well a priest is called 'Father' and the Pope is called 'Holy Father'.

I know - which appears to mean that there is no male rôle equivalent to that of Mother Superior and, as we know, women cannot yet be priests, cardinals, bishops, archbishops or popes in the Catholic Church.

But you are not a member of this organisation, ahinton. You can have any opinion you like about the organisation and think the rules are thoroughly daft .Most women members appear to quite happily accept the rules so they would not appear to be getting the same messages as you seem to think they get?

Regardless of any opinion that I choose to hold and to express, it's not my personal opinion that I'm concerned about here, for I am neither a Catholic nor a woman. My concern is that the barring of women from access to a number of senior positions within the Catholic Church sends out the wrong messages to women who know that they are entitled nevertheless to occupy positions of broadly equivalent seniority outside the Church and, for that matter, the role of priest within CofE; by "the wrong messages" I mean the sense of discouragement that it conveys to women who might otherwise have wanted to be able to fulfil those more senior rôles and who would feel as though barring them from those positions is tantamount to the Church regarding them as inferior beings and preferring that it (the Church) be run by men only. So it's the future of the Church in general and that of women withing it that concerns me - and I think it deeply unChristian to treat women as though they are incapable of or otherwise unsuited to certain work within the Church, especially in the light of the inconsistency of approach to the extent that the Church doesn't try to raise objections (that it would not in any case be entitled to raise) to Catholic women assuming the position of CEO in multinational companies.

Can you, as a devout Catholic of some long standing, explain to an ignorant non-Catholic like me why it is that you believe women should continue to be excluded indefinitely from such positions within the Church by outlining specific reasons why you, as a Catholic, consider them to be incapable of fulfilling them or otherwise unsuited to them?