The Vatican And Its Left-Wing Critics

[ahinton]

Pedantry ....

Also, or alternatively, but either way far more importantly, fact, probably and (if so) unfortunately...

[ahinton]

Eric Pickles is a Yorkshire pudding.

Indeed - but my MP is nothing of the kind.

[MrGongGong]

Indeed - but my MP is nothing of the kind.

"My" MP doesn't represent me at all

[Barbirollians]

Also, or alternatively, but either way far more importantly, fact, probably and (if so) unfortunately...

As you will be entirely aware - it is a figure of speech .

[Serial_Apologist]

Indeed - but my MP is nothing of the kind.

Apologies for deleting the link to which your reply is the reply, AH.

I post the daftest comments sometimes!

[Pabmusic]

The reason for its survival is that it places great emphasis on childhood indoctrination - it is just the same with all the other major religions. the best indicator of a person's religion, by a huge margin, is the religion of his parents.

Many fundamental actually have changed - for example, the first Christians were a Jewish sect who did not regard Jesus as divine. And Mary was not regarded as the Mother of God until 431. The Immaculate Conception was not incorporated into the dogma until 1854, and the Assumption of Mary until 1950.

Excellent post, which I note that no one has tried to argue with.

I was disappointed by one passage (as reported in an English translation) from Pope Francis's very first homily in his very first mass as Pope. He said:

'He who does not pray to the Lord prays to the devil. When we don't proclaim Jesus Christ, we proclaim the worldliness of the devil, the worldliness of the demon.'

Now this is hardly unexpected, but it neatly sums up the problem with religion. Religions leave a trail of division and hatred around the world. If you're not with us, you're against us (a false dichotomy). In the Catholic case, it condemns to hell everybody who does not pray to the god of the Catholics. Those who don't 'pray to the Lord' pray to the devil. The Pope said so.

Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus - all going to hell with the devil. The Pope said so. People who don't pray at all - going to hell with the devil. That small child who lives next door and whose parents are New Agers - to hell with the devil.

But it's all right if you do pray to the Lord. Lets hope that Hitler, who was a Catholic in good standing as late as 1943 (we don't know later than that) and who was never excommunicated by Pius XIII, prayed to the Lord.

Here's the Guardian article that contains the passage I quoted:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/14/pope-francis-style-first-day

[ahinton]

"My" MP doesn't represent me at all

Maybe you've never asked...

[scottycelt]

Excellent post, which I note that no one has tried to argue with.

I was disappointed by one passage (as reported in an English translation) from Pope Francis's very first homily in his very first mass as Pope. He said:

'He who does not pray to the Lord prays to the devil. When we don't proclaim Jesus Christ, we proclaim the worldliness of the devil, the worldliness of the demon.'

Now this is hardly unexpected, but it neatly sums up the problem with religion. Religions leave a trial of division and hatred around the world. If you're not with us, you're against us (a false dichotomy). In the Catholic case, it condemns to hell everybody who does not pray to the god of the Catholics. Those who don't 'pray to the Lord' pray to the devil. The Pope said so.

Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus - all going to hell with the devil. The Pope said so. People who don't pray at all - going to hell with the devil. That small child who lives next door and whose parents are New Agers - to hell with the devil.

But it's all right if you do pray to the Lord. Lets hope that Hitler, who was a Catholic in good standing as late as 1943 (we don't know later than that) and who was never excommunicated by Pius XIII, prayed to the Lord.

Here's the Guardian article that contains the passage I quoted:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...tyle-first-day

What would we do without the Guardian, eh ... ?

Pab, I'm afraid you have been badly misinformed not only about the beliefs of Adolf Hitler but what the Catholic Church teaches.

As far as I know it is only extreme Protestant sects which teach that anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ automatically goes to Hell. I was never taught that in any Catholic school or told that by any priest. Quite the opposite in fact. It was always we Catholics who had to be the most fearful! This is borne out by the fact that Francis was talking to a Catholic congregation. He is a Jesuit. I know from my own personal experience that they don't generally pussyfoot about and mince their words to fellow Catholics!

Now for Adolf Hitler. Associating Hitler with Catholicism is a bit like doing the same with Marx & Engels and Orthodox Judaism. I have to say Goebbels himself would have been really impressed with that one! Hitler had rather more in common with modern secularism as the following link demonstrates.

Where did you pick up this absurd 'Catholic of good standing as late as 1943 stuff from'? What utter nonsense!

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_religion_did_Hitler_say_he_was_if_any

Lapsed Catholics are not generally excommunicated as it is generally regarded that they have unofficially excommunicated themselves!!

[gurnemanz]

I was disappointed by one passage (as reported in an English translation) from Pope Francis's very first homily in his very first mass as Pope. He said:

'He who does not pray to the Lord prays to the devil. When we don't proclaim Jesus Christ, we proclaim the worldliness of the devil, the worldliness of the demon.'

This Pope seems to be somewhat obsessed with the Devil. I posted on this once before.

[Pabmusic]

What would we do without the Guardian, eh ... ?

Here's the same quote, but from a Christian source:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/pope-francis-stumbles-greeting-cardinals-shows-more-humble-touch-in-opening-days-92000/

Pab, I'm afraid you have been badly misinformed not only about the beliefs of Adolf Hitler but what the Catholic Church teaches.

As far as I know it is only extreme Protestant sects which teach that anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ automatically goes to Hell. I was never taught that in any Catholic school or told that by any priest. Quite the opposite in fact. It was always we Catholics who had to be the most fearful! This is borne out by the fact that Francis was talking to a Catholic congregation. He is a Jesuit. I know from my own personal experience that they don't generally pussyfoot about and mince their words to fellow Catholics!

I don't find the quote surprising, as I said, but I am a little surprised that the Pope was giving a message that was different for Catholics than it would be for anyone else. My real disappointment is with the idea that there are just two choices - those that are 'with us' and those that are our enemies. This is, as I said, a false dichotomy since there are actually more choices (what about those who don't believe or who don't care?). The Pope seems to be saying that everyone in the 'negative' category is damned ('prays to the devil' - proclaiming the worldliness of the demon) in some way. I used the term 'hell' because I thought that was a Christian idea (I don't think it's an Old Testament one), but I forgot there are 10-20,000 different versions of Christianity (all of them right, too). Perhaps Catholics explain 'hell' in a different way.

Now for Adolf Hitler. Associating Hitler with Catholicism is a bit like doing the same with Marx & Engels and Orthodox Judaism. I have to say Goebbels himself would have been really impressed with that one! Hitler had rather more in common with modern secularism as the following link demonstrates.

Where did you pick up this absurd 'Catholic of good standing as late as 1943 stuff from'? What utter nonsense!

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_religion_did_Hitler_say_he_was_if_any

Lapsed Catholics are not generally excommunicated as it is generally regarded that they have unofficially excommunicated themselves!!

This is my own fault for bringing up Hitler in the first place. Hitler was, I suspect, an opportunist who said different things at different times. The reference to his being a 'Catholic in good standing' in 1943 is from Goebbels (so it's trustworthy!) and is quoted by the historian Geoffrey Regan in Picking Over The Bones, but I can't find my copy yet. No matter.

Hitler professed to be a Catholic, a Christian, or a theist regularly during his rise to power (many times in Mein Kampf - "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work"). He also disowned God a number of times (though not as often as he embraced God) but in 1938 stated in a speech "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so". In 1934 he had said in a speech:

"Embued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions."

During the Nazi-Vatican concordat negotiations in 1933, he said:

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith...we need believing people."

He was probably anti-atheist, seeing atheism as linked with Communism or anarchism (a big mistake, of course, but a common misconception).

This resource is useful in considering this whole question:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Hitler was no more a 'typical' Catholic than he was a 'typical' German (well, Austrian). But he professed his Catholicism and used that when he needed to, although his religious views were more influenced, it seems to me, by the Lutherans. He was quite close to Pius XIII, though, but not so much to Pius XII, who seems not to have liked the Nazis.

Oh yes...the Wermacht uniform had a belt buckle that proclaimed Gott Mit Uns above an eagle and swaztika.

As for excommunication, one of the Nazi leaders was thrown out. Goebbels, for marrying a Protestant.

[scottycelt]

As we all know direct translation of a particular quote into English can appear rather different than the intended meaning in the original language.. Obviously a person who has never heard of the Christian God or who cannot accept the Church's teaching can still lead a very virtuous life! The Pastor was preaching to his Flock, not the wider world. The sermon was delivered at a Catholic Mass where presumably all the listeners present (apart maybe from media observers etc) were of that faith. He was clearly talking to those present reminding them that if one doesn't pray to the God they profess to believe in then the Devil takes over. From a Catholic viewpoint, nothing very new and controversial about that, surely.

Excommunication is not a 'punishment'. It generally follows continual heretical statements/actions by practising Catholics and is an official signal that these are at odds with Church Rules & Dogma. It is a bit like a Conservative or Labour MP losing the party Whip, though that's as far as I'll take the political analogy! According to WIki neither Hitler nor Goebbels were practicising Catholics from 1933. Goebbels married in 1931 so presumably he still practised or considered himself a Catholic at that time.

Nobody pretends that some (many?) ordinary German Catholics (maybe even some priests and bishops) were not fooled and swayed by Hitler. The same applies to Atheists and Protestants. It was a sad and dreadful period for all Germans.

The Vatican made 'Concordats' with all sorts of nasty people in order to save lives and property, So did Neville Chamberlain, another who is still unfairly criticised by 'left-wing critics' for so-called 'appeasement'. I have yet to hear anyone accuse him of being a Nazi sympathiser, but of course he wasn't a Catholic!

Mussolini was a virulently anti-clerical secularist and only came to terms with the Church because he simply thought of it as a nuisance threatening his grand Fascist plan and wanted it out of the way. Fortunately for the world, but unfortunately for him, it didn't go anywhere.

Thankfully, Hitler and Mussolini and their abhorrent regimes are long gone and huge crowds are again gathering in St Peter's Square for the Pope's Inaugural Mass this morning ... what did that other tyrant, Uncle Joe Stalin, say about the Pope's Divisions?

[MrGongGong]

As we all know direct translation of a particular quote into English can appear rather different than the intended meaning in the original language..

The Bible being a case in point

The Vatican made 'Concordats' with all sorts of nasty people in order to save lives and property

To save it's own power more like ......... so much for principles then

[Pabmusic]

As we all know direct translation of a particular quote into English can appear rather different than the intended meaning in the original language.. Obviously a person who has never heard of the Christian God or who cannot accept the Church's teaching can still lead a very virtuous life! The Pastor was preaching to his Flock, not the wider world. The sermon was delivered at a Catholic Mass where presumably all the listeners present (apart maybe from media observers etc) were of that faith. He was clearly talking to those present reminding them that if one doesn't pray to the God they profess to believe in then the Devil takes over. From a Catholic viewpoint, nothing very new and controversial about that, surely...

No, and I've said twice that I'm not surprised. As to the translation, I understand your point, but I suspect the press quotes (which are identical, or at least very similar) come from a Vatican press release. It's a pity about that Tower of Babel incident.

[Julien Sorel]

It's not exclusively left-wing is it, criticism of the Vatican? I'd not have put the sad history of sectarianism in Northern Ireland down as a leftist phenomenon. And the celebrity atheists like the late Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins or Martin Amis or Ian McEwan weren't / aren't left-wingers (however Hitchens might have once considered himself).

I find the idea that the Devil is sitting there waiting to pounce, the notion of Original Sin, the idea of Damnation barbaric. I know the answer could be that God's plan is mysterious, but why would a God do such things or permit such things when there's no necessity to them? If God is imperfect (as gods often are in polytheism) ... but the monotheistic gods aren't, or can't be. But the idea of eternal punishment seems so un-divine (and I know it's definitely not Catholic, but Calvinist Predestination is fiercely cruel).

The other difficulty of course is so many physical phenomena that in the past seemed only to have a Divine explanation, we now have other, internally coherent, verifiable explanations.

But that was my point about Evil. As an abstract category I don't see what it adds or what explanatory power it has. But I suppose these are matters of faith. It's just I can think of much more humane and humanly productive things to believe in than Sin and the Devil (I do realise that's not all there is to religious belief).

[Julien Sorel]

"Chi non prega per le Signore chiede il diavolo. Quando non annunciare Gesù Cristo, proclamiamo la mondanità del diavolo, la mondanità del demonio."