The Vatican And Its Left-Wing Critics

[Guest]

Over the past month or so, the Left has greatly exercised itself with the workings of the Vatican and has lobbed the same predictable criticisms in the direction of Rome. These can be easily summarised, as follows:

1) The Vatican is a sexist, chauvinist institution, which favours European candidates for the Papacy over those from other parts of the world.

2) The largest and most devout part of the Catholic population is in Africa, yet because the Vatican is an inherently racist institution, it will never elect a Pope who is other than white.

3) Whoever succeeds to the Shoes of the Fisherman, it will be the same old story as regards birth control, sexuality, etc, etc.

In the event, as we know, objection 1 was confounded. But had the conclave been prepared to confound the second objection, the Left would have been confronted with a very interesting dilemma. Most black African bishops are known for their extremely conservative views on the topics mentioned in objection 3 - and leftists/liberals the world over would have been placed in the sticky position of having to criticise a black man who holds views diametrically opposed to their own. Naturally, they would try to rationalise Pope Rastus's conservatism by blaming the legacy of white imperialism which kept the black man in a state of primitive subjugation for so long; but it would be difficult for them to sustain this theme without appearing patronising. All in all, they'd find a black Pope very difficult to deal with....

Of course, most of the Vatican's left-wing critics are atheists, anyway, and completely fail to understand why the issues outlined in objection 3 mean so much to people of faith; or that the reason for the Catholic Church's survival over the centuries is down precisely to the fact that its fundamentals don't change.

[MrGongGong]

"The left"

If you really want to look at it like that then Christianity IS "left wing" ...... you know the bit about giving ALL your money to the poor

[amateur51]

Over the past month or so, the Left has greatly exercised itself with the workings of the Vatican and has lobbed the same predictable criticisms in the direction of Rome. These can be easily summarised, as follows:

1) The Vatican is a sexist, chauvinist institution, which favours European candidates for the Papacy over those from other parts of the world.

2) The largest and most devout part of the Catholic population is in Africa, yet because the Vatican is an inherently racist institution, it will never elect a Pope who is other than white.

3) Whoever succeeds to the Shoes of the Fisherman, it will be the same old story as regards birth control, sexuality, etc, etc.

In the event, as we know, objection 1 was confounded. But had the conclave been prepared to confound the second objection, the Left would have been confronted with a very interesting dilemma. Most black African bishops are known for their extremely conservative views on the topics mentioned in objection 3 - and leftists/liberals the world over would have been placed in the sticky position of having to criticise a black man who holds views diametrically opposed to their own. Naturally, they would try to rationalise Pope Rastus's conservatism by blaming the legacy of white imperialism which kept the black man in a state of primitive subjugation for so long; but it would be difficult for them to sustain this theme without appearing patronising. All in all, they'd find a black Pope very difficult to deal with....

Of course, most of the Vatican's left-wing critics are atheists, anyway, and completely fail to understand why the issues outlined in objection 3 mean so much to people of faith; or that the reason for the Catholic Church's survival over the centuries is down precisely to the fact that its fundamentals don't change.

Your deliberate use of this name to illustrate your vision of a Black Pope is both pejorative and offensive ... and thus entirely in context with the rest of your provocative and small-minded post

[Mandryka]

Your deliberate use of this name to illustrate your vision of a Black Pope is both pejorative and offensive ... and thus entirely in context with the rest of your provocative and small-minded post

I think you've been stung by the general tenor of the post and are just choosing this name (which I once heard cited -seriously -as the likely title of a nominal black Pope) as a handy pebble to throw: I've accurately described the dilemma you and your pals would be in, so a job well done, I'd say.

[DracoM]

No, stung by the language, the distasteful inferences, and the unsubtle sledgehammer invective.

[Thropplenoggin]

[amateur51]

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

i rather think if we give Pope Francis a good six months or so there will be a huge claque of right wing protest against the Vatican of The Poor ....

[Pikaia]

the reason for the Catholic Church's survival over the centuries is down precisely to the fact that its fundamentals don't change.

The reason for its survival is that it places great emphasis on childhood indoctrination - it is just the same with all the other major religions. the best indicator of a person's religion, by a huge margin, is the religion of his parents.

Many fundamental actually have changed - for example, the first Christians were a Jewish sect who did not regard Jesus as divine. And Mary was not regarded as the Mother of God until 431. The Immaculate Conception was not incorporated into the dogma until 1854, and the Assumption of Mary until 1950.

[MrGongGong]

So apart from the Marian Cult, the divinity, the aqueduct , law and order........

I think what Mandy means (in a kind of Ned Flanders way) is that it's "fundamentals" don't change APART from those fundamentals that DO change

[jean]

Over the past month or so, the Left has greatly exercised itself with the workings of the Vatican and has lobbed the same predictable criticisms in the direction of Rome. These can be easily summarised, as follows:

1) The Vatican is a sexist, chauvinist institution, which favours European candidates for the Papacy over those from other parts of the world...

...In the event, as we know, objection 1 was confounded...

Really?

Pope Francis is actually of Italian parentage (like so many Argentinians), but more important, he is definitely a man.

As for

2) The largest and most devout part of the Catholic population is in Africa...

... Most black African bishops are known for their extremely conservative views on the topics mentioned in objection 3 - and leftists/liberals the world over...[would] find a black Pope very difficult to deal with....

This is not exactly something no-one else has thought of; I mentioned it myself a while ago on another thread.

The Anglican church has been struggling with its ultra-conservative African bishops in plain sight for some time and continues to do so.

Please try to be a bit more original.

[scottycelt]

Instead of the usual abuse and insults hurled by some liberal and tolerant members Mandryka should be congratulated for a refreshing bit of plain, blunt speaking. One doesn't have to be a Catholic to acknowledge there is a lot of truth in what he says.

The dilemma for some liberal, tolerant non-Catholics if a 'Black Pope' were ever elected had often crossed my mind as well. That could well have provoked a major crisis of 'political-correctness'. Oh dream on, scottycelt.

However, the Pope who's just been chosen seems to have got off to a very good start. One of his very first words to a congregation were ... 'Please don't be naive ... '

That could be equally good advice for some outside the Church as well ...

[MrGongGong]

and here he comes .................

If he REALLY sold off all the wealth of the church to give it to the poor then he might be making a start
Bill Gates isn't a saint BUT seems to be doing more good in the world with his money than the men in frocks

[scottycelt]

Talking about naivety it has just been reported on Sky News that the liberal President of Argentina apparently wants Pope Francis to 'intervene' in the dispute over the Falklands!

[Bryn]

... the Pope who's just been chosen seems to have got off to a very good start. One[sic] of his very first words to a congregation were ... 'Please don't be naive ... '

Advise you might well take to your own heart, sc. Failing to recognise the Aunt Sally nature of the Mandrake's 'summary' has led you right up the garden path. I, for one, was rather expecting an African (of African heritage at that) to be elected. I was also expecting such a Pope to be even more reactionary than Ratzinger, and hoping he might drive a few more away from the fold. As it is we seem to have got a Mother Teressa with a (sexually redundant) penis.