Habemus Papam!

[Quarky]

Ah! I see. I think I'd agree with that, but it's more about rationalising the view that the person wants to accept, rather than providing a rational basis for a world-view.

The pope presumably has spent most of his life in prayer, which for Christians is the manner of establishing a dialogue with god. This is a practical approach, not establishing a world view on the basis of intellectual analysis.
Sorry haven't got time to get involved in a long argument, but I'm partial to the view:

Yoga is the suppression of movements in the consciousness - then the seer is established (abides) in his own essential nature: Patanjali Yoga Sutras 1.2, 1.3

[amateur51]

I mean Truth.

Truth: A scene from Scottish life as it is lived in the burbs of Cheshire ...

In a suburban kitchen ...

Mrs scotty: What do you fancy for dinner, love?

Scotty: Casserole!

Mrs scotty: (pen poised) What sort of casserole, love? Sausage with beans? Beef with ale? Lamb? Chicken?

Scotty: I meant Casserole!

He leaves

Sound of doorbell. Mrs scotty leaves off.

Mrs scotty returns with a reel-to-reel tape recorder and a bunch of bananas.

She open the kitchen door and shouts

Mrs scotty: There's a man called Beckett just left these for you, love

CURTAIN.

[scottycelt]

Thank goodness that at least amsey understands the word CURTAIN ...

[amateur51]

Thank goodness that at least amsey understands the word CURTAIN ...

You know where you are with curtains, scotty - now pull yourself together

Oh yes!

[MrGongGong]

There certainly appeared to me to be a contradiction. If 'free will' is now to be doubted then surely we have no right to condemn and punish the 'Norwegian mass murderer' and child sex-abusers. We should simply feel sorry for them, instead?

Of course "free will" is incompatible with the existence of an omnipotent god (or even God).....you can't know everything and simultaneously know everything apart from some things.....


that's just Krapp

[Mr Pee]

that's just Krapp

Thank you Mr GG. We can always rely on you to lower the tone.

(And I get the pun. It doesn't make it any better.)

[MrGongGong]

I'd forgotten you were a "theatrical" darling ......... mwah

[BBMmk2]

Here we go again!! It certainly doesnt take much here, on these boards!

[MrGongGong]

Here we go again!! It certainly doesnt take much here, on these boards!

OOOER it's all those men in frocks

[Pabmusic]

Of course "free will" is incompatible with the existence of an omnipotent god (or even God).....you can't know everything and simultaneously know everything apart from some things.....

You're right. Also, an omnipotent (all-powerful) god is incompatible with an omniscient (all-knowing) one. If the god uses his omnipotence in response to something, then it must be because of an event that the god knew (because of his omniscience) would occur. In that instance, the god has no other choice but to act in a certain way to fulfil the outcome known through his omniscience. Therefore he cannot be omnipotent. Or else, if he does act in a different way, he is not omniscient, since the result will be different.

Martin Luther 'solved' this paradox by arguing that everything is pre-ordained (even who will go to heaven) at the time of our birth - which does away entirely with free will. But that strips God of his omnipotence.

My own thought is that I object strongly to being a pawn in some god's cosmic game, played to arbitrary rules, with a prize in an unknowable other life as a reward for accepting without question what I have been told. (They must be arbitrary rules if the god is omnipotent, since he could presumably have whatever rules he wanted.)

As far as we know, we have only one life - our moment in the spotlight, lived on one planet that we share - and we should make the very best of it in ways that benefit us all.

[Quarky]

Unless of course, when we die our immutable soul is transplanted into a hedgehog, by reason of reincarnation!

I feel I ought to say a little more about an Indian view perspective on these matters, and this is an extract from a book in my possession (BKIS):

CIT AND CITTA (UNIVERSAL AND INDIVIDUAL CONSCIOUSNESS)
The unalterable seer (cit) is lord of the consciousness. He is ever-present, changeless, constant….
The seer is the seed, and consciousness is the seedling. Mind is the stem, and vrittis, the fluctuations or thought waves, are the leaves, relayed via mind through the individual consciousness, the stem, back to the seed………
The cit (seer, soul, cosmic consciousness) is a passive omniscient witness, whereas the citta (created or “sprouted” consciousness) is active, impressionable and engaged, because it is involved in direct relationship with the outside world. But when that involvement is analysed, controlled and brought to stillness, the citta gravitates towards its source, the cit, and takes on its characteristics, so that for the realised person cit and citta become one. The problem is that for the average person, consciousness appears to be the seer, while in reality it merely masks the seer…..”

[Serial_Apologist]

Unless of course, when we die our immutable soul is transplanted into a hedgehog, by reason of reincarnation!

I feel I ought to say a little more about an Indian view perspective on these matters, and this is an extract from a book in my possession (BKIS):

CIT AND CITTA (UNIVERSAL AND INDIVIDUAL CONSCIOUSNESS)
The unalterable seer (cit) is lord of the consciousness. He is ever-present, changeless, constant….
The seer is the seed, and consciousness is the seedling. Mind is the stem, and vrittis, the fluctuations or thought waves, are the leaves, relayed via mind through the individual consciousness, the stem, back to the seed………
The cit (seer, soul, cosmic consciousness) is a passive omniscient witness, whereas the citta (created or “sprouted” consciousness) is active, impressionable and engaged, because it is involved in direct relationship with the outside world. But when that involvement is analysed, controlled and brought to stillness, the citta gravitates towards its source, the cit, and takes on its characteristics, so that for the realised person cit and citta become one. The problem is that for the average person, consciousness appears to be the seer, while in reality it merely masks the seer…..”

The late Alan Watts was wonderful on this kind of stuff in his "The Book on the Taboo against Knowing Who You Are", first published in Britain by Abacus back in 1969. As with all his writings, so much of what he wrote rings true with powerful and wise messages for us today.