Habemus Papam!

[scottycelt]

It must seem incredible to some of us that they are those who claim that 'evil' does not exist.

As has been pointed out before if 'evil' or 'badness' does not exist then neither can 'goodness' ... the latter would make no sense as there would be no comparison with anything else. There can, of course, be degrees as in any other scale.

I certainly believe in 'evil'. There is no evidence that Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin or the Norwegian mass murderer were clinically insane. I believe 'evil' infected the Catholic Church with the child-abuse scandals. I believe every human being, including myself, is perfectly capable of succumbing to 'evil'.

Am I 'consumed with guilt'? Not really, I accept that is part of the human condition and must be fought. I also believe that people, including myself, can do good, and that is also part of the human condition. Hitler, Stalin and the Norwegian mass murderer may well have done some good in their lives that is not known to us. Who knows? Even that dreadful monster Old Rupey has done a lot of 'good' as some charities will gratefully and willingly testify.

Catholics are no more 'consumed with guilt' over 'evil' than they go around boasting about their 'goodness' and generosity when they contribute £10 a month to CAFOD or OXFAM.

[scottycelt]

Oh naff off you old scrote




TukTukTukTuk

You're certainly advertising your own advanced years by using past-century terms of endearment like 'naff off', amsey ...

[amateur51]

You're certainly advertising your own advanced years by using past-century terms of endearment like 'naff off', amsey ...

A tribute to the great Ronnie Barker creation 'Norman Stanley Fletcher', scotty

[amateur51]

It must seem incredible to some of us that they are those who claim that 'evil' does not exist.

As has been pointed out before if 'evil' or 'badness' does not exist then neither can 'goodness' ... the latter would make no sense as there would be no comparison with anything else. There can, of course, be degrees as in any other scale.

I certainly believe in 'evil'. There is no evidence that Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin or the Norwegian mass murderer were clinically insane. I believe 'evil' infected the Catholic Church with the child-abuse scandals. I believe every human being, including myself, is perfectly capable of succumbing to 'evil'.

Am I 'consumed with guilt'? Not really, I accept that is part of the human condition and must be fought. I also believe that people, including myself, can do good, and that is also part of the human condition. Hitler, Stalin and the Norwegian mass murderer may well have done some good in their lives that is not known to us. Who knows? Even that dreadful monster Old Rupey has done a lot of 'good' as some charities will gratefully and willingly testify.

Catholics are no more 'consumed with guilt' over 'evil' than they go around boasting about their 'goodness' and generosity when they contribute £10 a month to CAFOD or OXFAM.

We must never forget how so many public Catholics have soothed themselves over the accusations that the Church's attitude to condoms resulted in the AIDS pandemic in the Catholic-influenced parts of Africa by pointing to the example of Mother Teresa who accepted huge sums of money from the wealthy and guilt-anguished to run her temples of agony as part of 'the deal' scotty. That's how her God wanted them to suffer, she felt.

[Julien Sorel]

But I think I can tell when people are looking to swop ideas rather than force ideas in discussions like this, and I do not feel, JS, that you are forcing your views, forceful as they are. While I operate on a different level from you, and others who love the intellectual cut and thrust, I have to stand by my own convictions(?) to some extent, and by my fellow religionists, lay and clerical, who do not deserve all of the negative abuse that is all too easy to heap upon us at this time.

The problem with a message board as a way of communicating is even if you don't wish to force your views you finish up feeling that's what you are doing. Thanks - it wasn't my intention to do so, and what you say is kind.

I wouldn't, I hope, ever direct abuse at you or your fellow religionists (that's one of the aspects of Dawkins's professional atheism that so irks me). I'd separate belief from what I'd see as institutional aspects of that belief. That's not very clear in my head.

Scotty - I don't deny that evil is a fact. It's the idea of Evil I find suspect. The idea that there's some transcendental Evil pre-existing evil actions or words.

[teamsaint]

The use of the idea of evil(in others) by unscrupulous powerful people is a very big problem IMO.

[scottycelt]

Scotty - I don't deny that evil is a fact. It's the idea of Evil I find suspect. The idea that there's some transcendental Evil pre-existing evil actions or words.

[vinteuil]

- I don't deny that evil is a fact. .

I understand "evil" when the word is used as an adjective - an evil man, an evil system, an evil thought.

I don't understand what is meant by "evil" as a noun. It seems to claim that there is an abstract entity, 'evil', - as it might be a platonic idea - and I do not understand what such a thing would be.

[scottycelt]

We must never forget how so many public Catholics have soothed themselves over the accusations that the Church's attitude to condoms resulted in the AIDS pandemic in the Catholic-influenced parts of Africa by pointing to the example of Mother Teresa who accepted huge sums of money from the wealthy and guilt-anguished to run her temples of agony as part of 'the deal' scotty. That's how her God wanted them to suffer, she felt.

It's not an 'attitude', amsey ...

It's a 'belief'. Can't you get your head around that?

Forgive me, but you appear wholly concerned with the 'usual issues'. Mother Teresa devoted her life to the poor of Calcutta, not something that most of us would even contemplate for a second.

I agree that Mother Teresa did not devote her life to promote secular WESTERN values like the free distribution of condoms in Africa. There are countless people already who are apparently devoted to that. That is their prerogative.

We all have our own priorities and values and others have theirs ... and, unlike you, I have absolutely no idea how Mother Teresa felt about anything.

[ahinton]

Ahinton, your take on Christianity is generous one, iimss. Yes, Christ's message is one of compassion, unselfishness and against greed of all kinds. It has always been, in all its manifestations, deeply in hoc to the notion of inborn weakness and untrustworthiness, the eternal battle with our "animal nature" (which is at one with the idea that we are bidden to rule over the rest of nature, from which we are separate by virtue of the God-given power of choice and responsibility). In the proverbial end, salvation through Christ is our only ticket to the heavenly hereafter; and that comes of course loaded with conditions.

Do you really believe that this is how Christ Himself perceived it? If so - and, far more importantly, if you are correct - then my entire understanding of Christ and his teachings (such as it is) as well as his humanity and flexible sensitivity is fundamentally flawed - for which I can only write MEA CULPA...

[Padraig]

I understand "evil" when the word is used as an adjective - an evil man, an evil system, an evil thought.

I don't understand what is meant by "evil" as a noun. It seems to claim that there is an abstract entity, 'evil', - as it might be a platonic idea - and I do not understand what such a thing would be.

A bit like poetry,vinteuil? What makes a man, a system or a thought 'evil'? Where, or what, is 'the evil'?

'For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand'.

[scottycelt]

I understand "evil" when the word is used as an adjective - an evil man, an evil system, an evil thought.

I don't understand what is meant by "evil" as a noun. It seems to claim that there is an abstract entity, 'evil', - as it might be a platonic idea - and I do not understand what such a thing would be.

Do you understand 'good' as a noun ... such as "it's for 'the good' of a tolerant society that you don't shoot people with whom you disagree" ... so presumably and logically there must be a 'bad' or 'evil' alternative ... ?

Or do you simply maintain there is really no such thing as Good and Evil?

[vinteuil]

Or do you simply maintain there is really no such thing as Good and Evil?

I understand the concept of ' a good person ' , ' an evil person ' , ' a good intention ', ' an evil intention '.

I don't think I understand what is meant by the abstract nouns 'good' or 'evil' as I think you use them.

[Mr Pee]

I understand the concept of ' a good person ' , ' an evil person ' , ' a good intention ', ' an evil intention '.

I don't think I understand what is meant by the abstract nouns 'good' or 'evil' as I think you use them.

I fail to see how, if you can understand the first part of the above, that you cannot understand the second.

[amateur51]

It's not an 'attitude', amsey ...

It's a 'belief'. Can't you get your head around that?

Forgive me, but you appear wholly concerned with the 'usual issues'. Mother Teresa devoted her life to the poor of Calcutta, not something that most of us would even contemplate for a second.

I agree that Mother Teresa did not devote her life to promote secular WESTERN values like the free distribution of condoms in Africa. There are countless people already who are apparently devoted to that. That is their prerogative.

We all have our own priorities and values and others have theirs ... and, unlike you, I have absolutely no idea how Mother Teresa felt about anything.

Well I can only go by what I have read, scotty wghich I found pretty repellant not being emotionally tied to the initiating dogma

Your 'nice' distinction between 'attitude' and 'belief' is fascinating I'm sure - the outcome, people dying terrible deaths quite needlessly, is exactly the same, sadly. And the sight of someone with the political clout and the finances to improve the lot of poor people but choosing not to do so because of some belief (see? I got there ) is to me quite nauseating.

But then I don't believe in an after-life