University Challenge

[Richard Tarleton]

And look what became of Swallow and Zapp in the appositely-titled sequel, "Small World" - in which the author's narrative carries through to the end-process, grey conformity, seemingly.

I must re-read it, but that's not what I remember at all - more of a journey towards self-knowledge and enlightenment....(funny, too)

[ardcarp]

Maybe we shouldn't get too serious as to what Uuniversity Challenge is 'about'. It's a quiz show! It is however sometimes extraordinary what young (well, not always young, perhaps) people know, deduce or guess correctly at! It's a bit of fun which I enjoy anyway.

[Dave2002]

What are university finals other than "retrieval in accordance with competitive performance principles"?

In a sense yes, though it's not always simple retrieval. It's probably discipline dependent to a degree, but taxonomies of learning, such as Bloom's, might be investigated - or see this article which has some good pictures - http://www.psy.gla.ac.uk/~steve/best/bloom.html

Synthesis is difficult to evaluate in some disciplines - if only because of time limitations in a final exam. Note also a problem with application of simple taxonomies to performing arts. Someone may be brilliant at theory, yet boring as a performer, and vice versa. Some taxonomies only really work for "academic" subjects.

[ardcarp]

What are university finals other than "retrieval in accordance with competitive performance principles"?

Maybe slightly off-topic, but the assessment of composition, whether at A-level or university final level seems a complete nonsense to me

A certain rather talented teacher of A-level music managed to persuade a well-known string quartet to come and play through her students' efforts in the medium. One student produced an outstanding piece which was so much admired by the visiting SQ that they included it in several of their recital programmes. The student in question got a B on his composition mark and as a result failed to get an overall A* which was otherwise on the cards. No doubt a work of real talent failed to meet the A-level board's 'criteria'. You just can't examine composition. End of rant.

[teamsaint]

Maybe slightly off-topic, but the assessment of composition, whether at A-level or university final level seems a complete nonsense to me

A certain rather talented teacher of A-level music managed to persuade a well-known string quartet to come and play through her students' efforts in the medium. One student produced an outstanding piece which was so much admired by the visiting SQ that they included it in several of their recital programmes. The student in question got a B on his composition mark and as a result failed to get an overall A* which was otherwise on the cards. No doubt a work of real talent failed to meet the A-level board's 'criteria'. You just can't examine composition. End of rant.

...and if that is true, the attempt to do so can cause considerable damage.

[ardcarp]

Back to UC. Yesterdays was a lively contest I thought, and very evenly matched.

I thought the orchestral score question was ridiculously easy...but then Mrs Ardcarp pointed out that a good general knowledge of classical music doesn't include score- reading. In which case Holst Planets (Mars) wasn't a bad guess. The guy obviously recognised a triplet when he saw one.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

...and if that is true, the attempt to do so can cause considerable damage.

ardy's anecdote doesn't surprise me at all, tallying as it does with my own experience: "damage" can indeed be done. Too much depends on the experience and expectations of the marking Examiner, and how rigidly they adhere to Mark Schemes and criteria. I hope that the composer in question requested a re-mark of the Composition - these are done by Examiners "higher" up in the Exam. Board hierarchy.

But if "you can't examine composition", do you remove it from the Syllabus? Is there the same problem with Art Examinations, which are mostly based on students' creative work - and, if not, what can Music Examiners learn from their Art colleagues?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Back to UC. Yesterdays was a lively contest I thought, and very evenly matched.

I thought the orchestral score question was ridiculously easy...but then Mrs Ardcarp pointed out that a good general knowledge of classical music doesn't include score- reading.

True - but then "a good general knowledge" of (for example) Mathematics doesn't include some of the erudite algebra that often features on UniChall (the sort of questions where I often feel that Paxman and the students could be inventing words as they go along )

In which case Holst Planets (Mars) wasn't a bad guess. The guy obviously recognised a triplet when he saw one.

Didn't he suggest Bolero for the triplet Wedding March?

[Richard Barrett]

Paxman and the students

Paxman is just reading it off a card in front of him, though, surely he knows no more than an average person does about advanced mathematics.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Paxman is just reading it off a card in front of him, though, surely he knows no more than an average person does about advanced mathematics.

Indeed - I was referring to the words he read, not (necessarily - he might, for all I know speak Algerbran like a native) the thinking involved behind the reading.


("Algebran" sounds like a cereal given to Mathematicians with constipation! Better than working it out with a pencil on a bit of paper, I suppose.)

[Richard Barrett]

Better than working it out with a pencil on a bit of paper, I suppose

Let alone when it's really complicated working it out with logs.

[ardcarp]

Didn't he suggest Bolero for the triplet Wedding March?

Yes, sorry. My mistake.

working it out with logs.

Doesn't that method pre-date the Stona Age?

Paxman is just reading it off a card in front of him, though, surely he knows no more than an average person does about advanced mathematics.

That rather re-inforces my theory that scientsts/mathematicians tend to know more about the arts than, well, vice-versa, if you get my drift. Certainly borne out by yesterday's teams.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That rather re-inforces my theory that scientsts/mathematicians tend to know more about the arts than, well, vice-versa, if you get my drift. Certainly borne out by yesterday's teams.

I think that you're right there, ardy - and possibly a result of teenagers being encouraged to study Science, and "keep" the Arts "as a hobby" rather than "waste their time" following academic Arts courses. (And Arts-inclined students aren't similarly encouraged to do sciences, such as Astronomy, as hobbies or even for general interest.)

[un barbu]

I think that you're right there, ardy - and possibly a result of teenagers being encouraged to study Science, and "keep" the Arts "as a hobby" rather than "waste their time" following academic Arts courses. (And Arts-inclined students aren't similarly encouraged to do sciences, such as Astronomy, as hobbies or even for general interest.)

In 1970, when I captained my university's team on the programme, we had, mirabile dictu, not a single scientist on the team. We won our first game largely on our knowledge of film noir which was the subject of the picture questions. After that, disaster. Bamber Gascoigne was a gent.

[MrGongGong]

Maybe slightly off-topic, but the assessment of composition, whether at A-level or university final level seems a complete nonsense to me

A certain rather talented teacher of A-level music managed to persuade a well-known string quartet to come and play through her students' efforts in the medium. One student produced an outstanding piece which was so much admired by the visiting SQ that they included it in several of their recital programmes. The student in question got a B on his composition mark and as a result failed to get an overall A* which was otherwise on the cards. No doubt a work of real talent failed to meet the A-level board's 'criteria'. You just can't examine composition. End of rant.

You can examine composition
I spent most of Friday with someone who does precisely that
You can also misunderstand what an exam is for and what it is examining

I've been paid handsome sums for pieces that would fail an A level exam
Composition is in danger of disappearing from music teaching as it is, let's not help it on it's way