University Challenge

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think "unmistakable" in that example is wrong, as the rapid cut-off after such a short initial note (quarter of a second?) means it would not register as Beethoven 5 for most people, even those blessed with perfect pitch. I think one needs slightly longer durations that begin a work, and the longer the first note/chord the more 'unmistakable' it gets, for example:

- Perfect fifth horns opening Janacek's Sinfonietta
- Low strings chord opening Act III of Wagner's Tristan
- Long orchestral unison opening Beethoven's Egmont overture
- High bassoon note opening Le Sacre

Yes - for this to work we need to talk seconds rather than notes maybe…I still think if was sent 10 G’s I’d spot Beethoven 5 ….
And I’m not talking dollars !

[Bella Kemp]

I do love it when one of the students clearly knows music and is happy to be challenged on the classical questions. I don't think it's entirely fair to cry 'What! you don't know that?' when she or he is stumped by something - after all, most of them are terrifically young and it's physically impossible to have heard all the music that those of us who are considerably older know. Mind you, I do myself indulge in the occasional, 'Kids know nothing these days!' - my grandmother said it of me and her grandmother said it of her . . . It's one of the pleasures of life.

[ardcarp]

Mind you, I do myself indulge in the occasional, 'Kids know nothing these days!'....It's one of the pleasures of life.

That's a phrase that seldom escapes my lips in the context of University Challenge. So a pleasure denied in my case! Music aside, I am absolutely staggered by the knowledge (and deductive powers) of these particular young people though it has to be said that sometimes a more 'mature' team id fielded which has the advantage of more life-experience. I'd prefer it to be an undergrad contest. In the case of pop-music questions I am happy to admit that 'Adults know nothing', at least chez nous.

[burning dog]

Lance Gibbs was not a slow left arm bowler !

[Bryn]

Annoying that the answer re Three Men on a Boomer was not given at the end/

[pastoralguy]

That explains it!

Cannot believe this Edinburgh team couldn’t identify Beethoven and Mendelssohn tonight!

[Dave2002]

Cannot believe this Edinburgh team couldn’t identify Beethoven and Mendelssohn tonight!

They still won very convincingly though! The violin playing was somewhat mannered and/or less than perfect.

I wondered who the soloist(s) was/were.

[subcontrabass]

They still won very convincingly though! The violin playing was somewhat mannered and/or less than perfect.

I wondered who the soloist(s) was/were.

As the conductor was given as Leo Blech the soloist appears to be Fritz Kreisler.

[Dave2002]

As the conductor was given as Leo Blech the soloist appears to be Fritz Kreisler.

Possibly. I have some recordings by Kreisler, and some of them are good - but the particular recordings may not have been made under ideal circumstances.

[BBMmk2]

I’m truly amazed, most of the time, when the participants in this series, and the regular one, hardly know, even the basics of the classical repertoire?!?!?

[gradus]

Annoying that the answer re Three Men on a Boomer was not given at the end/

Didn't see it but was it Three Men on the Bummel? The sequel to Three Men in a Boat.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I’m truly amazed, most of the time, when the participants in this series, and the regular one, hardly know, even the basics of the classical repertoire?!?!?

It seems that anything referring explicitly to something specifically religious - well, to be frank about it, Christian is largely expunged from the Primary school curriculum - in the generality. Ofsted have zero interest in music in schools, and I daresay the same applies for compulsory acts of worship (assuming they, technically, survived Gove's ravages of the education system). The ever present exceptions will be a matter of the commitment of individual headteachers and to some extent teachers. Our local infant school abandoned its Christmas nativity for year one and reception - I always got a strong sense they saw parents crossing the threshold of the school as unwelcome, and had the vapours at the thought of a hall full of likely feckless family members. Mrs CS promoted a huge amount of musical activity in junior schools, never required of her, always down to the headteacher's willingness or otherwise and latterly she stopped her music teaching (having previously given up class teaching) when enough obstacles had been placed in her way by an ignorant (in the true sense of that word) headteacher who preferred to concentrate, wholeheartedly, on coore curriculum and OFSTED's priorities. As a primary head friend told me, "They can terminate a head's services in double quick time these days........".

To illustrate, a new headteacher suspicious of the Christmas concert wanted to be reassured the children would be singing/performing music that would be suitable "like they hear in the supermarket". 30 minutes at the piano playing the music in question and specifying the texts resulted in agreement and the comment that it would be "lovely....". (That was a head who had been on a "resistance to change" course before they arrived....with all the trouble and grief that unfolded as a result).

Consequently music, if it is actually covered is an exercise of listening to something, creating some sounds, repeat again, boxes ticked. The children sing no hymns, or even the anodyne semi-religious efforts we might recall. They might just hear pieces of classical music but will retain no knowledge of it.

Contacts in secondary teaching tell me that all year 7 pupils, on entrance are assumed to know nothing. Consequenlty, for example a 10/11 year old pianist due to take grade 8, having made astonishing progress, is sitting whilst the classmates learn about crochets and quavers. Again it depends on the wishes of the head and the backing given, so in general music teachers come and go and boxes are ticked. All of the above preceded Covid. A local secondary with a superb, inclusive and thriving music department and scene was of course decimated by the exigencies of the pandemic and for one reason and another the music staff have moved on, there is a new head and it remains to be seen if the successors have the necessary - well, crucial - vision and commitment. Given the financial crisis faced by schools - covid costs - not least catch up for core subjects, imposition of other costs* - these have served to leave little or no funds to spend on non-core subjects, hard choices and tick box completion to the extent that music is required. (*I'd need to check but I recall loading of greater costs (pension costs in the payroll? - VAT? - Nat Insurance - some such).

As a consequence, given the developing situation in England, the choirs in which I sing will provide for a fee, a group to sing hymns at funerals and weddings and it is noticeable that, increasingly, there are not enough in the congregation able to sing a hymn which would be very familiar to most of the members here.

All of this is a cultural observation; I am sure there are those for whom the purity of absence of these things from the lives of children is entirely desirable. Myself, I regard matters of my church going to be largely cultural/social, and struggle with the concepts I am asked to subscribe to - but then I am flawed and definitely intellectually "impure".

Finally, to observe that in future years, if not already, undergraduates knowing much about classical music / serious music is going to be a result of few factors - one being an exceptional interest in the home - along with support for instrumental playing or other participation, a church (hymn singing etc). Apart from that, of course the other major element are those educated in fee-paying schools. I asked a prep school maths teacher if they had intrumental teaching, an orchestra, a choir - the reply being "of course, the parents demand it....". They will also have been to (almost) compulsory chapel services and been at the least given some acquantance with Classical / serious music.

I asked Mrs CS whether she was aware of parents in state primary schools demanding that there should be no hymns, carols, assemblies of a religious nature or celebrations of Easter and Christmas and she was not aware there had ever been such complaints. The most she could recall were some RC and Brethren children who were withdrawn from such occasions; there were numerous Hindu and Moslem families - but could not point to demands they were not held. I asked if it was headteachers, teachers or even governors being the lead in deciding to neutralise these elements - so Christmas becomes "The Holidays" and Easter a festival of egg hunts - and answer came there none. For all the value he placed on "traditional" education, Gove Failed to bolster music and these cultural elements, and ensure that OFSTED's spotlight was shone on the consequent delivery.

Sorry to have gone on so long - it all started with having no surprise about the contestants on UC. I expect tertiary eductation academies, university music courses to be full of students from fee paying schools and those other parents who supported their children through all the years, outside of school time - and a few from truly exceptional state school departments. And finally - launch a wedding ("can do funerals/events") singing group in your choir - there is money to be made to support your activities. As a side interest, discussions about the outfits of the bridal group / relatives and other elements - sometimes Dibley style, etc

[Ein Heldenleben]

Thanks for the long if exceptionally depressing post. As you say private schools provide musical education and instrumental tuition because parents demand it so why don’t all parents? At one stage I was paying for two sets of piano lessons, violin ,trumpet , and guitar lessons - some £2000 a year . I was very lucky to have a job where I could afford it. Without some form of state provision how many can?
The music tuition at the primary school my children went to was exceptional . There must have been fifty in the school orchestra- with a preponderance of flute players but not enough strings - I believe that’s quite common . One extremely dedicated teacher was an inspiration to so many children and she was supported by a musical head- she put in so many extra hours . At secondary school music provision was reasonable - but a sister school had again a truly exceptional teacher and piano teacher .
So much of state provision seems to be down to committed individuals. I do get the impression though it also varies from county to county. Although I am years from direct involvement I get the impression that things in Devon and Cornwall are still better than many other places .
The Benthamite point - the one that tends to resonate with politicians - is that one reason Britain is a global leader in pop music is the past excellence of its state provision. The cultural and psychological points are too obvious to forum readers to need repeating ….

[ardcarp]

So much of state provision seems to be down to committed individuals.

Absolutely true; and there is one more proviso. The Head Teacher must let him/her get on with it, plus providing time and resources.

I am personally rather pleased that my youngest grandchild (aged 7) is being given free trombone lessons at his very mixed-race state Primary School in Leicester. Trombone at present provided gratis, with the option of lease/hiring one if he continues. He played Jingle Bells on it at Christmas after only one term's lessons.

[Bryn]

Absolutely true; and there is one more proviso. The Head Teacher must let him/her get on with it, plus providing time and resources.

I am personally rather pleased that my youngest grandchild (aged 7) is being given free trombone lessons at his very mixed-race state Primary School in Leicester. Trombone at present provided gratis, with the option of lease/hiring one if he continues. He played Jingle Bells on it at Christmas after only one term's lessons.

Let's face it, Leicester has a pretty honourable history where music in schools is concerned.