Charlies dodgy influence strikes again

[gingerjon]

One last point worth making is that homeopathy (I'll come out and say that it's basically talking nicely, nodding seriously and then handing someone a sugar pill - it's a placebo which is why it works as well as placebo in tests) is huge business. It's not giant corporate interests of Western Orthodox Mainstream Pharma Medicine versus the little guy. It's big companies against big companies. Or frequently: a big company openly being a big company 'against' another section of the same big company that's put its sugar pills in a pastel-coloured packet. In this country, for example, Boots has a homeopathy division.

And please don't forget that it's not just any sugar pill. It has to be hit with a magic stick first.

10% of people may believe homeopathy works. Or they might believe it should be available. Every time Cancer Research find a photogenic middle-aged lady who would like the newest, untested 'wonder' drug to be available to all who need it regardless of cost I imagine the numbers of people who think, "Yes, save the lady, save everyone!" goes up too. That doesn't mean the drug, or indeed an expensive set of placebos, should be available.

NICE has a tough enough job dealing with unelected and clever pharma companies and charities without needing the hassle of having to follow the whims of a plant-fancying nutter who gets his opinions heard because of who conceived him.

[MrGongGong]

One last point worth making is that homeopathy (I'll come out and say that it's basically talking nicely, nodding seriously and then handing someone a sugar pill - it's a placebo which is why it works as well as placebo in tests) is huge business. It's not giant corporate interests of Western Orthodox Mainstream Pharma Medicine versus the little guy.

This IS a very important point IMV

[teamsaint]

Those people who wish to access Homeopathy pay their taxes too, and if they want NHS money spent of it then that should be their choice.
The 10% that seems to be a common figure is a very significant number of people, and whether or not people on here call them "nutters " and so on is irrelevant, IMO.
Plenty of treatments under conventional medicine are (also?) completely useless, EG incorrect prescription of antibiotics.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but 10% is a very large number of people, and they deserve to have their opinions respected, and their wishes taken into account.
Or is it ok to ride roughshod over this particular group of peoples wishes?

[scottycelt]

that accpted medical practice may or may not have scintific validity is neither here nor there when it comes to homeopathy which must stand or fail by direct evidence of its efficacy ......and it fails by evidence

beliefs are two a penny, good evidence is hard to come by and should be respected ... if some medicines are also witch doctor stuff [eg antidepressants] then they should be dispatched by evidence as well ... not used in some argument for pseudo fairness ... a disgraceful abandonment of rational argument ...

Yes, that is logical. ... that is, if I understand you correctly.

Sometimes with conventional drugs the side-effects can outweigh any benefit to the patient so for those patients affected these drugs could even be described as "harmful", never mind useless.

If homoeopathic medicines can work for those with problems of a largely psychosomatic nature then the use of these 'remedies' can be justified accordingly.

However, if my own doctor ever suggested any such stuff to me , I'd quickly conclude that she had finally reached the desperate stage in the search for a possible 'cure', and so then I would tend to look elsewhere.

[gingerjon]

Or is it ok to ride roughshod over this particular group of peoples wishes?

If the NHS budget were infinite then nobody would need to make evidence-based decisions on what it should provide that was most beneficial for the nation's health as a whole.

Sadly it isn't. So decisions have to be made. Decisions that may shorten the lives of photogenic middle-aged women as their new wonder-drug will be rationed and decisions that may irk those who would like to get their unproven alternative therapies at a discount.

[MrGongGong]

Those people who wish to access Homeopathy pay their taxes too, and if they want NHS money spent of it then that should be their choice.
The 10% that seems to be a common figure is a very significant number of people, and whether or not people on here call them "nutters " and so on is irrelevant, IMO.
Plenty of treatments under conventional medicine are (also?) completely useless, EG incorrect prescription of antibiotics.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but 10% is a very large number of people, and they deserve to have their opinions respected, and their wishes taken into account.
Or is it ok to ride roughshod over this particular group of peoples wishes?

I certainly don't think that my irrational beliefs should be used to decide what is available on the NHS at all
the people who believe in this nonsense should not be allowed to waste valuable resources on something that doesn't work

This

"Plenty of treatments under conventional medicine are (also?) completely useless, EG incorrect prescription of antibiotics."

Is a completely false argument (there's a real name for this which escapes me at the moment) as it seems to suggest that because some antibiotics have been wrongly prescribed (i'm a little biased here because without antibiotics I would be dead) that it's somehow OK to use crystal sugar pills with an incantation from virgins at the full moon and an added magic stick bash for good measure

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

How intolerant (and arrogant) some people are. Perhaps stuffing people with drugs is not the only way forward.

[MrGongGong]

How intolerant (and arrogant) some people are. Perhaps stuffing people with drugs is not the only way forward.

No , lets all wave a magic stick at people who have REAL illness instead
There's nothing wrong with people with more money than sense who don't have anything really wrong with them taking sugar pills because it makes them feel better and they would have got better anyway without BUT don't expect the rest of us to pay for it or take it remotely seriously.
Having lived in Totnes i'm more than aware of the hold some of these things have ......

[gingerjon]

How intolerant (and arrogant) some people are.

I know.

I've seen what some people say about the diluted forms of music available on Classic FM as well.

[MrGongGong]

I know.

I've seen what some people say about the diluted forms of music available on Classic FM as well.

Not to mention SKY

If you bought a CD containing an recently discovered archive recording of Eine Alpensinfonie but on playing it found it really was an extended version of Metal Machine Music you might be a bit miffed

[Pabmusic]

How intolerant (and arrogant) some people are. Perhaps stuffing people with drugs is not the only way forward.

I agree, there might be other ways. However, the best method that we know to work out whether there might be other ways is the scientific method - to test different ways. Well, we have had about 200 years to test homeopathy and it has been found wanting. 'Medicines' that are prepared using a magical rite, that are usually diluted beyond the Avagadro number, so that they don't (on average) contain any of the active ingredient, but just a 'memory' of it.

Homeopathy can have a placebo effect, but no greater than if you test a sugar pill. That is not an effect of the medicine, it's an effect of the patient's belief that the 'medicine' is helping them. But there is a demonstrable placebo effect even if the patient knows they're being given a sugar pill. And sugar pills are much cheaper.

[teamsaint]

I certainly don't think that my irrational beliefs should be used to decide what is available on the NHS at all
the people who believe in this nonsense should not be allowed to waste valuable resources on something that doesn't work

This

"Plenty of treatments under conventional medicine are (also?) completely useless, EG incorrect prescription of antibiotics."

Is a completely false argument (there's a real name for this which escapes me at the moment) as it seems to suggest that because some antibiotics have been wrongly prescribed (i'm a little biased here because without antibiotics I would be dead) that it's somehow OK to use crystal sugar pills with an incantation from virgins at the full moon and an added magic stick bash for good measure

10 % is a big number. You call it irrational belief if you want. Those people pay taxes too.
Plenty of NHS money is wasted on conventional medicines that don't work, such as the spectacularly well documented over (and incorrect) prescribing of antibiotics.

there are important issues around use of resources.They are the resources of the people who want to access homeopathy as much as they are yours and mine.
If 10% of people wanted some other thing we would want to respect that, at least.

Personal experience is important in these discussions. Antibiotics are vital, over prescription of them is a huge waste of resources.

[Mary Chambers]

There's nothing wrong with people with more money than sense who don't have anything really wrong with them taking sugar pills because it makes them feel better and they would have got better anyway without BUT don't expect the rest of us to pay for it or take it remotely seriously.

Precisely.

[teamsaint]

They are paying for it.

In a similar way, smokers pay for their treatment that some people see as being for self inflicted harm

[Julien Sorel]

because some antibiotics have been wrongly prescribed (i'm a little biased here because without antibiotics I would be dead)

I agree that there's no sensible argument for homeopathy or Prince Charles (and I'm delighted you're not dead ), but "some antibiotics have been wrongly prescribed" greatly understates the problem that over-prescription of antibiotics has caused.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/antibiotics-crisis-will-mean-routine-infections-are-fatal-8320551.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/24/antibiotics-mrsa

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...w-it-WHO-claim.

The tone of the comments and the reports may be unhelpfully apocalyptic, but I don't doubt the situation is real enough (and there is strong statistical evidence to back that up).