Chethams and the RNCM

[amateur51]

Ahinton, french frank has clearly stated that she prefers self-censorship to be exercised when you think about about posting further on this thread. I know it's a BIG ASK (sorry Hornspieler) of you but do you think you could give it a go?

I for one am getting heartily fed-up with the torrent questions that you're directing at the management here. An unkind person might conclude that you're enjoying the attention

[DracoM]

Agree. And am not at all clear as to what is being exorcised / exercised either.

[ahinton]

Ahinton, french frank has clearly stated that she prefers self-censorship to be exercised when you think about about posting further on this thread. I know it's a BIG ASK (sorry Hornspieler) of you but do you think you could give it a go?

Does that mean that you would like others to "self-censor" in the same way - i.e. not to post at all in the thread or are you directing your question solely at me?

I for one am getting heartily fed-up with the torrent questions that you're directing at the management here.

No one is asking you to answer them! If any of them are unreasonable, I apologise unreservedly. They have been asked purely for the purpose of trying to reach a full understanding of what might and might not be considered acceptable to post about the subject on this forum and, after all, one of them did ask if the thread should end. As long as we know what is deemed to be on the acceptable side of "self-censorship" and what is not, then we can all act accordingly.

An unkind person might conclude that you're enjoying the attention

Well, since you are not one and I'm not seeking, let alone enjoying, any personal attention that might arise from this thread, I don't think that we need to worry about that, do you?!

Anyway, many of the questions have been answered with the thoughtful consideration that we have fortunately become accustomed to expect from FF. It is now clear that hearsay should be clearly identified as hearsay and reportage as reportage rather than provable fact, that potential libel risks should be avoided by eschewing references to named institutions and individuals other than in cases that have already been tried in Court and that individuals' own experiences would better be reported to the police than aired on this forum if they involve the commission or alleged commission of crimes. Beyond that, it's now a matter of what discussion of the subject can be deemed acceptable here on the understanding that these conditions are met and I personally believe that there remains room for some constructive debate in those circumstances, but if "self-censorship" is here perceived as needing to go farther than this, then so be it and if it's to go as far as to end the discussion, then, again, so be it.

[ahinton]

Agree. And am not at all clear as to what is being exorcised / exercised either.

That's precisely what I've been asking certain questions in order to establish!

[doversoul1]

ahinton
I cannot disagree with any point you are making (#44, 45) but the question is: is this forum the appropriate or right alternative? There are any numbers of specialised organisations, both for support and for campaign, such as Victim Support. Child Protection League, or perhaps an organisation like Joseph Rowntree Foundation may lead you to where these issues can be discussed in more abstract way within the ‘right’ setup. I think, then, the link or information about the discussion can be posted on this forum.

[ahinton]

ahinton
I cannot disagree with any point you are making (#44, 45) but the question is: is this forum the appropriate or right alternative? There are any numbers of specialised organisations, both for support and for campaign, such as Victim Support. Child Protection League, or perhaps an organisation like Joseph Rowntree Foundation may lead you to where these issues can be discussed in more abstract way within the ‘right’ setup. I think, then, the link or information about the discussion can be posted on this forum.

Well, I can well see the sense of that as far as it goes, but I'm not so certain that this would of itself determine that no aspect of the subject may be discussed here, for there remain the issues about
(a) how the heads of music colleges deal with reports of alleged crimes
(b) how the police deal - and are trained to deal - with such issues when they receive reports of them
(c) how the judicial system (CPS, barristers, judges et al) handle such issues when criminal charges have been brought to trial
at least some of which might not necessarily be comprehensively covered via the otherwise eminently sensible suggestions that you make here (of which a representative of Victim Support has already broadcast his initial views on the subject in the immediate aftermath of the Brewer / Andrade case).

As an example, it has been reported in the press that (a) the Home Secretary has expressed some initial thoughts on what gave rise to the recent court case and (b) the Attorney General has expressed grave concern to ascertain whether or not Mrs Andrade was given conflicting advice by different police forces about seeking professional help during the course of the investigation of her case and whether any such help might affect the manner in which her assertions could be regarded by a Court; I wonder if this is deemed acceptable to mention here? (and I'll be happy for this paragraph of my post to be redacted accordingly if not).

If the forum is not deemed to be an appropriate place for discussion of those aspects of (a), (b) and (c) above that might not otherwise be covered by organisations such as those that you mention, then so be it, but I imagine that we'd need to be clear on that.

[Anna]

It is now clear that hearsay should be clearly identified as hearsay and reportage as reportage rather than provable fact, that potential libel risks should be avoided by eschewing references to named institutions and individuals other than in cases that have already been tried in Court and that individuals' own experiences would better be reported to the police than aired on this forum if they involve the commission or alleged commission of crimes. Beyond that, it's now a matter of what discussion of the subject can be deemed acceptable here on the understanding that these conditions are met and I personally believe that there remains room for some constructive debate in those circumstances

I realise you have a personal interest in this, knowing the husband of the victim identified in the original posting but I wonder quite what you want to discuss here? If you have, whether heresay or proof, of further instances of abuse at music schools or colleges this is not the place to reveal them, and, as dover has pointed out, there are various organisations for this.
What can we discuss? We don't know how the police/social services dealt with complaints as we were not there, we don't know how the legal system treated them, as we were not there, we can read the report of the trial and form our own conclusions about the legal profession of course. This thread now has 48 replies, mainly yours, seeking clarification on what you can post. If you do have proof or evidence of wrongdoing then please approach the relevent authorities and lodge a formal complaint.
Edit: cross posted with ahinton so I had not read his post whilst typing this

[ahinton]

I realise you have a personal interest in this, knowing the husband of the victim identified in the original posting but I wonder quite what you want to discuss here? If you have, whether heresay or proof, of further instances of abuse at music schools or colleges this is not the place to reveal them, and, as dover has pointed out, there are various organisations for this.
What can we discuss? We don't know how the police/social services dealt with complaints as we were not there, we don't know how the legal system treated them, as we were not there, we can read the report of the trial and form our own conclusions about the legal profession of course. This thread now has 48 replies, mainly yours, seeking clarification on what you can post. If you do have proof or evidence of wrongdoing then please approach the relevent authorities and lodge a formal complaint.

Let me make it clear straight away that I do not have proof of any "further instances of abuse at music schools or colleges", nor have I claimed here or elsewhere to have such proof and the only "hearsay" (if that's what it is) to which I have drawn attention here and elsewhere is, as I have already made clear, what I have read in other publications including newspapers. You are correct to state that we do not (yet) know how the police or other support organisations dealt with any aspect of the case from first report until the trial, but we do know that aspects of its effectiveness and suitability are being challenged; as to the trial itself, it will be a matter of public record and its transcript can be ordered and read by anyone wishing to obtain it and conclusions drawn from that about the appropriateness or otherwise of its conduct. I can also assure you and everyone else here that, if I did have or even get "proof or evidence", or feel that I have good reason to become suspicious, of wrongdoing of this nature, I would indeed have reported / will report it to the relevant authorities; I would most certainly not bring it here. Lastly, I have never been a victim of this kind of behaviour.

I hope that this clears up any misunderstandings that may have arisen from anything that I have written here or elsewhere and I apologise unreservedly if anything that I have written has given rise to any such misunderstandings.

Yes, my personal interest has begun, as you rightly say, as a consequence of my knowing and greatly admiring Mr Andrade and his work but, like many others, I imagine, my concern now is that so much is coming out about this kind of behaviour in music schools and colleges and, whilst the mere fact of it coming out does not a conviction make, it is now rather beginning to look as though the courage of Mrs Andrade has become a catalyst for its emergence. It must surely be a matter of grave concern to us all and, as such, it would surely be surprising if no one here had any views on how, for example, the school and college heads, the police, the support services and the judiciary ought to have dealt with it, subject of course to what we actually do know about it.

The question is not of what "I" want to discuss here but of what others - presumably including the OP - might want to discuss, as I am but a single member of this forum; accordingly, the questions that I asked were posed for the benefit of the forum as a whole in terms of establishing what is or is not deemed acceptable to discuss about this issue here, not just about what I personally can post.

Lastly, I should add that, although I've known about this for almost a week, I have instigated no threads about it anywhere and have simply responded to this one here which had been initiated by another member.

[Anna]

Fine, and thank you for the reply. I can now see where you stand on this and your viewpoint and if the trial encourages others who have been abused, such as Ms. Andrade was, to come forward they can only be applauded for their courage in speaking out. Other than saying that I don't think I will contribute further to this thread, having no pertinent knowledge of music colleges and schools and will leave it to others if they wish. Good Luck!

[Vile Consort]

I propose Next Business.

[amateur51]

I propose Next Business.

Second the motion, Chair



[Ed: I will leave the thread open, but if people feel they have nothing to say - don't say it ff ]

[MrGongGong]

As I think I said before

Schools are institutions for children
and
Colleges (with some exceptions of schools that call themselves "colleges") are for adults albeit usually young ones

which (and there are some who will misconstrue till the cows come home) in no way implies that some of the things that go on in colleges with adults are a good idea (though I did benefit from the atonal sight singing we had to do )..... it's important to understand the difference IMV

[kernelbogey]

A news piece and an interview with Martin Roscoe, both on the subject of this thread, appear in today's Guardian.

[Pabmusic]

A news piece and an interview with Martin Roscoe, both on the subject of this thread, appear in today's Guardian.

A disturbing article. Trouble is, after 30 years in a large organisation, I can picture it so easily.

[scottycelt]

I agree that a public forum is not really the place to discuss such matters the details of which we know next to nothing .

It is also striking that some of those correctly urging caution now, and some even apparently offering what amounts to part-excusing certain illegal behaviour, do not apply the same exemplary standards to similar cases in other institutions, and indeed almost enthusiastically weigh-in with ignorant, ill-informed contributions.

No double-standards please!