Owen Patterson - an MP past his sell-by date?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

.... i do like a nice piece of fish as well .... but the fish may not survive 9 billion hungry predators

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Re message 57, quite a lot of livestock in the UK is pastured on land that is unsuitable for arable, being too steep, too stony, or, conversely, subject to regular flooding in the winter.

That's quite correct. I'm sure Alpen will be along soon with that stupid litres water per kilogram of beef figure . . . he knows simply everything.

[Anna]

Re message 57, quite a lot of livestock in the UK is pastured on land that is unsuitable for arable, being too steep, too stony, or, conversely, subject to regular flooding in the winter.

And, if its not too steep or stony the land is often classified on the Agricultural Map of England and Wales as Grade IV (as is the case here) and the only crops that can be grown on such poor land are some cereals (such as oats) and forage crops. What we grow best here is grass - which is why we rear prime beef and sheep. Additionally, if you remove grazing from heathland, hills and moors the countryside would soon revert to unsightly scrub and bracken. Grazing (more often referred to now as Conservation Grazing) is vital to maintain a rich mix of fauna and flora.

As to the horse meat scandal, most of the blame can be laid at the feet of supermarkets. De-sinewed meat (DSM) was introduced in the the UK in the 1990s as a replacement for mechanically recovered meat (MRM) aka "pink slime", MRM was formed by removing residual meat from animal bones using high pressure water. It had been linked to the spread of the human form of BSE and the UK government took steps to restrict it from the food chain.

DSM was developed as a higher quality form of recovered meat. It was produced using low pressure, retained some structure and was regarded as a meat ingredient on value products.

But in 2012, the European Commission told the FSA that it no longer regarded DSM as a form of meat and it would have to reclassify it as MRM, which meant it could no longer be used in low-cost meat items. Therefore the supermarkets put pressure on manufacturers and they put pressures on suppliers to source low-cost meat and, horsemeat was the perfect answer. Six times cheaper than the cheapest DSM and enabling even bigger profits.

[amateur51]

And, if its not too steep or stony the land is often classified on the Agricultural Map of England and Wales as Grade IV (as is the case here) and the only crops that can be grown on such poor land are some cereals (such as oats) and forage crops. What we grow best here is grass - which is why we rear prime beef and sheep. Additionally, if you remove grazing from heathland, hills and moors the countryside would soon revert to unsightly scrub and bracken. Grazing (more often referred to now as Conservation Grazing) is vital to maintain a rich mix of fauna and flora.

As to the horse meat scandal, most of the blame can be laid at the feet of supermarkets. De-sinewed meat (DSM) was introduced in the the UK in the 1990s as a replacement for mechanically recovered meat (MRM) aka "pink slime", MRM was formed by removing residual meat from animal bones using high pressure water. It had been linked to the spread of the human form of BSE and the UK government took steps to restrict it from the food chain.

DSM was developed as a higher quality form of recovered meat. It was produced using low pressure, retained some structure and was regarded as a meat ingredient on value products.

But in 2012, the European Commission told the FSA that it no longer regarded DSM as a form of meat and it would have to reclassify it as MRM, which meant it could no longer be used in low-cost meat items. Therefore the supermarkets put pressure on manufacturers and they put pressures on suppliers to source low-cost meat and, horsemeat was the perfect answer. Six times cheaper than the cheapest DSM and enabling even bigger profits.

Terrible stuff, Anna

Big Pharma, Big Phood, I'm sick to death with all this dreadful hyper-capitalist profit-driven rule-dodging approach to my life ... and yours

[ahinton]

That's quite correct. I'm sure Alpen will be along soon with that stupid litres water per kilogram of beef figure . . . he knows simply everything.

Not only do gratuitous insults and unwarranted predictions not an argument make (or even contribute usefully to one), there are also bona fide statistics about this and, whilst they do not tell the whole story, they nevertheless exist and have their own relevance.

[ahinton]

And, if its not too steep or stony the land is often classified on the Agricultural Map of England and Wales as Grade IV (as is the case here) and the only crops that can be grown on such poor land are some cereals (such as oats) and forage crops. What we grow best here is grass - which is why we rear prime beef and sheep. Additionally, if you remove grazing from heathland, hills and moors the countryside would soon revert to unsightly scrub and bracken. Grazing (more often referred to now as Conservation Grazing) is vital to maintain a rich mix of fauna and flora.

As to the horse meat scandal, most of the blame can be laid at the feet of supermarkets. De-sinewed meat (DSM) was introduced in the the UK in the 1990s as a replacement for mechanically recovered meat (MRM) aka "pink slime", MRM was formed by removing residual meat from animal bones using high pressure water. It had been linked to the spread of the human form of BSE and the UK government took steps to restrict it from the food chain.

DSM was developed as a higher quality form of recovered meat. It was produced using low pressure, retained some structure and was regarded as a meat ingredient on value products.

But in 2012, the European Commission told the FSA that it no longer regarded DSM as a form of meat and it would have to reclassify it as MRM, which meant it could no longer be used in low-cost meat items. Therefore the supermarkets put pressure on manufacturers and they put pressures on suppliers to source low-cost meat and, horsemeat was the perfect answer. Six times cheaper than the cheapest DSM and enabling even bigger profits.

All perfectly true and all equally horrific (save for the recognition that the worst of these things had to change by law). I have no issues with the sale of horsemeat or products containing it (although, as I've already stated, I have almost no personal interest in purchasing packaged food products), provided that the source of the horsemeat is traceable and the products are correctly identified, neither of which has been happening in what's now being uncovered. It's interesting, though (and I'd not realised this until all of these things came to light) that, whilst there remains almost no market for fresh horsemeat in UK at present, horses are indeed reared for their meat in UK and the meat is exported.

[Anna]

It's interesting, though (and I'd not realised this until all of these things came to light) that, whilst there remains almost no market for fresh horsemeat in UK at present, horses are indeed reared for their meat in UK and the meat is exported.

Oh, where do you think all those cute wild New Forest ponies land up? Innocent abroad you are, ahinton!
I have fish for dinner tonight! 90% Seahorse!

[Richard Tarleton]

Additionally, if you remove grazing from heathland, hills and moors the countryside would soon revert to unsightly scrub and bracken. Grazing (more often referred to now as Conservation Grazing) is vital to maintain a rich mix of fauna and flora.

I hesitate to take issue here Anna ....but, if you remove grazing from the hills, what you end up with ultimately is woodland, which is what the hills were clad with before they were cleared for grazing. Scrub and bracken are only intermediate stages. There are experiments afoot to rewild some of our uplands, eg in Ennerdale in the Lake District.

The biologically richest parts of Snowdonia are the bits that sheep can't get at, because they're too vertical, or from which they are excluded (Cwm Idwal). The Brecon Beacons and the Cambrian Mountains are bald ecological deserts, thanks to sheep. Beautiful heather uplands and sheep are mutually exclusive, because sheep nibble the heather flowers - you can see this quite dramatically driving inland from Aberystwyth, the heather and botanical diversity stopping abruptly at the fence lines.

Cattle grazing is much more conducive to botanical diversity, unfortunately it's largely retreated from the uplands. Sheep, on the other hand, are a woolly plague.

(I'm just going to take cover for a few hours ).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It's true that much of our island is unsuitable as arable land, and therefore grazing is the best option. The rub come with intensive livestock farming in flatter areas that is boosted by cattle feed that uses land that could be used for direct human food.

[ahinton]

Oh, where do you think all those cute wild New Forest ponies land up? Innocent abroad you are, ahinton!

Well, I'm aborad, that;s for sure (even if only just!)...

I have fish for dinner tonight! 90% Seahorse!

!!! (and I won't ask of what the other 10% might consist)...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I have fish for dinner tonight! 90% Seahorse!

[teamsaint]

Oh, where do you think all those cute wild New Forest ponies land up? Innocent abroad you are, ahinton!
I have fish for dinner tonight! 90% Seahorse!

Ah, Fruits de Mare . yum.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

I hesitate to take issue here Anna ....but, if you remove grazing from the hills, what you end up with ultimately is woodland, which is what the hills were clad with before they were cleared for grazing. Scrub and bracken are only intermediate stages. There are experiments afoot to rewild some of our uplands, eg in Ennerdale in the Lake District.
(I'm just going to take cover for a few hours ).

As well you might. Have you been to Ennerdale? It seems a tad fey to describe Ennerdale as en-route to wilderness when it is planted for most of its length to a height of 1,500' by the Forestry Commision. It's probably one of the most industrialized valleys of the Lake District (turning a blind-eye to Grizedale, Mardale, Thirlmere . . .). In living memory (just) Ennerdale would have been home to several family farms maintaining centuries-old grazing by hefted herdwicks. In that same memory would be government-policy to clear the tenants grazing the valley to make way for the plantations, with nice, ruler-straight edges and fire-breaks. Originally, these were open to the hillsides, but then the remaining herdwicks ate the dwarf trees, so the forests are enclosed by fences that wouldn't look out of place around a stalag. Recently the Forestry Commission have been felling trees - taking their first crop. Now they're replanting - 'more fucking pine trees' (as Johnny Morris once quipped about Finland). Wilderness my arse.

[jean]

As well you might. Have you been to Ennerdale? It seems a tad fey to describe Ennerdale as en-route to wilderness when it is planted for most of its length to a height of 1,500' by the Forestry Commision... In living memory (just) Ennerdale would have been home to several family farms...

I thought they were in the process of replacing the conifers with broadleaf trees. It certainly looked like that when I was at Black Sail a few months ago.

It's a bit late for the family farms.

Here's what they think they're doing, anyway:

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/nweennerdaleccfplan.pdf/$file/nweennerdaleccfplan.pdf

[An_Inspector_Calls]

Wow! A whole 8 % broadleaf planting! Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees. Time was when the direct climb of Pillar from the valley floor to Robinson's Cairn and Pillar Rock was one of the very best; now, the first 1,100 ' is up a fire break.