Gay marriage thread

[amateur51]

You mean I just don't buy it? True.

Treating people the same is not how to treat people equally, especially if they are different in the first place. It requires more sophisticated thinking than the SSM mantra.

Aren't lesbian and gay people of faith more likely to know what they want than you do, Beefy?

Try a little modesty sometime - you never know, it might suit you

[Beef Oven]

What a strange argument - where do you find this source of comparable 'evils'?

You think it's strange that the apartheid treatment of black people is 'bigger' than your desire for "The right to decalre your commitment to your partner before friends and family in the church/temple/mosque, whatever if you want to and the temple etc has no objection"?

You think the Holocaust is no worse than the murder of Lee Rigby in your absolute-moral scheme?

How much is a return ticket to your land? I'd like to have a look around.

[Beef Oven]

Aren't lesbian and gay people of faith more likely to know what they want than you do, Beefy?

Try a little modesty sometime - you never know, it might suit you

Like I said, the thinking needs to be a bit more sophisticated than that. But hey, you don't care, do you?

[ahinton]

And there are large majorities within the three religious groups you mention who insist that such a combination of lifestyle and beliefs is incompatible.

There are indeed "those" within those three religious groups who oppose same sex marriage on principle, but do you have incontrovertible proof that, with the exception of Muslims, these constitute and represent "large majorities"?

[ahinton]

Erm...a majority is by definition large. The clue's in the name......

Of course it is but, as I've already asked, where's the evidence for this? Furthermore, what makes you think that, with ever more countries signing up to same sex marriage, the proportion of Christians, Jews and other religious groups - even including Muslims - who remain steadfastly against it is not amenable to reduction? IN any case, there is also a large number of people who do not subscribe to any religious group, so those who do so do not even represent a typical view on same sex marriage in the first place.

[Beef Oven]

There are indeed "those" within those three religious groups who oppose same sex marriage on principle, but do you have incontrovertible proof that, with the exception of Muslims, these constitute and represent "large majorities"?

Why have you excepted Moslems?

[Pabmusic]

You think it's strange that the apartheid treatment of black people is 'bigger' than your desire for "The right to decalre your commitment to your partner before friends and family in the church/temple/mosque, whatever if you want to and the temple etc has no objection"?

You think the Holocaust is no worse than the murder of Lee Rigby in your absolute-moral scheme?

How much is a return ticket to your land? I'd like to have a look around.

You are mistaken in taking this line. I don't know what's in Ams' mind, but I suspect there's no list of comparative evils. Nor should there be in anyone's mind. If you think in comparatives, then you run the risk that you will diminish the 'evil' surrounding the recent murder in Woolwich because the scale of the Holocaust it just so overwhelming.

The murder of Lee Rigby seems to have been planned, others seem to have assisted in the planning and the young lad was targeted. The killing was done in such a way as to allow the perpetrators maximum publicity. Now those features of planning, 'clinical' killing, and ruthlessness seem to be features of the Holocaust, too. Of course the Holocaust was on a gigantic scale, and many more people were involved, but those are matters of scale rather than of degree. If only one million had died (as in Rwanda) would that have been more acceptable? Of course not. Well, by exactly the same token, was the killing of one man in Woolwich more acceptable in terms of the evil exhibited?

[Serial_Apologist]

I would just like to declare my love of a great deal of modernist and experimental music is by no means undermined by the fact that Beef Oven shares some of my own tastes...

[ahinton]

Why have you excepted Moslems?

If you read both my posts, you will see that I excepted them in the first of these on the grounds that it is likely that a greater proportion of them would still currently be against SSM than is the case with most other religious groups (although I do not pretend to have absolute statistics to prove this); the more important point, however, was that, as SSM becomes law in ever more countries, the likelihood that opposition to SSM within any religious group, including Muslims, will dwindle is very real.

[Beef Oven]

If you read both my posts, you will see that I excepted them in the first of these on the grounds that it is likely that a greater proportion of them would still currently be against SSM than is the case with most other religious groups (although I do not pretend to have absolute statistics to prove this); the more important point, however, was that, as SSM becomes law in ever more countries, the likelihood that opposition to SSM within any religious group, including Muslims, will dwindle is very real.

Why do you say it is likely that a greater proportion of Muslims would still currently be against SSM? What is it that you know, that I don't?

[Pabmusic]

I would just like to declare my love of a great deal of modernist and experimental music is by no means undermined by the fact that Beef Oven shares some of my own tastes...

[ahinton]

Why do you say it is likely that a greater proportion of Muslims would still currently be against SSM? What is it that you know, that I don't?

I speak purely from personal experience and I did add the caveat that I do not have the statistical evidence to prove it beyond question; however, you're still seeming to evade the point that, as more countries sign up to SSM (and as more people in some of those countries - mainly the more "developed" ones - reduce or abandon their religious affiliations, for that matter), the proportion of anti-SSM folk who do still belong to religious groups is likely to diminish once legislation endorsing SSM widens its general social acceptability.

[eighthobstruction]

I would just like to declare my love of a great deal of modernist and experimental music is by no means undermined by the fact that Beef Oven shares some of my own tastes...

....idle hands

[Beef Oven]

You are mistaken in taking this line. I don't know what's in Ams' mind, but I suspect there's no list of comparative evils. Nor should there be in anyone's mind. If you think in comparatives, then you run the risk that you will diminish the 'evil' surrounding the recent murder in Woolwich because the scale of the Holocaust it just so overwhelming.

The murder of Lee Rigby seems to have been planned, others seem to have assisted in the planning and the young lad was targeted. The killing was done in such a way as to allow the perpetrators maximum publicity. Now those features of planning, 'clinical' killing, and ruthlessness seem to be features of the Holocaust, too. Of course the Holocaust was on a gigantic scale, and many more people were involved, but those are matters of scale rather than of degree. If only one million had died (as in Rwanda) would that have been more acceptable? Of course not. Well, by exactly the same token, was the killing of one man in Woolwich more acceptable in terms of the evil exhibited?

You've missed the point.

[Beef Oven]

I speak purely from personal experience and I did add the caveat that I do not have the statistical evidence to prove it beyond question; however, you're still seeming to evade the point that, as more countries sign up to SSM (and as more people in some of those countries - mainly the more "developed" ones - reduce or abandon their religious affiliations, for that matter), the proportion of anti-SSM folk who do still belong to religious groups is likely to diminish once legislation endorsing SSM widens its general social acceptability.

So you are making it up as you go along? Fair enough - so long as your on the correct side in this forum you'll be alright