Gay marriage thread

[Flosshilde]

However, a Catholic cleric simply espousing traditional Catholic ethics seems perfectly reasonable and a quite natural thing to me,

It's no longer clear what those ethics are, or whether they are being observed (rather than 'espoused') by either priests or by laity. If they are 'traditional' they can be changed, once they are seen to be no longer fit for purpose. It was 'traditional' for hospital consultants to be regarded as next to god - nobody, nurses or patients, would query him. Now a nurse's code of ethics makes it a responsibility of the nurse to query a consultant's instructions if they thought they were wrong.

It seems clear to me that despite your expressions of anger & sadness over O'Brien it's 'keep calm & carry on'. You see him as the rotten apple in the barrel - push it down out of sight & everything will be OK. Except that it's more than one, or two, or a few rotten apples; it's nearly all of them, & the barrel that holds them.

[Deckerd]

As so often happens, we find ourselves confronting the two opposite possibilities of reform from within or destruction from both within and without;

There is a third way of course; do nothing and stagnate, which is already happening to most churches.

[ahinton]

Maybe they should stop preaching some of the offensive and harmful nonsense that the church tradition has created over many years ?
and concentrate on trying to make the world a better place for those who are less fortunate than themselves ?

Yes, of course - but that's a separate, though no less important, issue from practising what's being preached.

[ahinton]

There is a third way of course; do nothing and stagnate, which is already happening to most churches.

Indeed; let's hope that this does not happen yet again...

[vinteuil]

The Catholic Church is not going to change its ethics :

... why do you say that? It has changed its stance on many things over the centuries. S Thomas Aquinas did not hold with the view that souls were present from conception; he wd not have followed present teaching on contraception, or even possibly abortion. Many Saints took a dim view on the notions of the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption of the BVM, now held to be 'dogma'. The magisterium has at various times held positions on non-white races, slavery, and women that few would countenance today.

In fact one of the things that marks the Roman Catholic church out from certain Bible-based Protestant traditions is its self-belief in an evolving revelation under the auspices of the Holy Spirit of which it - the RC Church - is the channel. Things for Catholics should not be seen as 'set in stone' - they change, and the RC Church allows it self under the guidance of the third person of the Trinity to change with it.

[MrGongGong]

I guess the "problem" that the Catholic Church has
is that (and this is probably the only real difference ? ) it believes that
the church is absolutely necessary for "salvation"

(though if "heaven" is full of those folk i'm glad i'm not going there )

[amateur51]

To be fair, scotty was referring specifically to changes of ethics and, as I've already stated, what needs to be sought is an overt adherence to its actual ethics along with an equally open willingness to consider changes to those five issues that Pabmusic and I raised between us a few posts back, of which none need necessarily involve a change of ethics per se.

I wasn't referring to scotty, ahinton - I was thinking about playing hardball with faith groups for a change

[amateur51]

Having met some really inspirational people in your church (as I mentioned before about a school staffed by nuns in Limerick ) I only wish those who really DO do good things could find a way to ditch the whole nasty organisation and carry on doing the obviously good work that they do. Sadly I think the whole sick organisation is riding on the back of some dedicated folk who HAVE benefitted the world. Loosing the stupid sex /guilt thing would save countless lives from a HIV and improve the lives of many women in developing countries BUT the sad dysfunctional leaders of the church don't really give a toss about that.

Witness the embarrassingly out-of-touch response from Cormac Murphy O'Connor referred to earlier.

[ahinton]

Witness the embarrassingly out-of-touch response from Cormac Murphy O'Connor referred to earlier.

That's a most unusually polite description, even for you!

[scottycelt]

... why do you say that? It has changed its stance on many things over the centuries. S Thomas Aquinas did not hold with the view that souls were present from conception; he wd not have followed present teaching on contraception, or even possibly abortion. Many Saints took a dim view on the notions of the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption of the BVM, now held to be 'dogma'. The magisterium has at various times held positions on non-white races, slavery, and women that few would countenance today.

I'm not sure you're right about Aquinas regarding artificial contraception and abortion. He is known to have condemned both in the strongest terms. Anyone in any doubt can enquire for themselves! I don't know about the 'many saints' who took 'a dim view' of the dogmas you mention, you'd have to be more specific.

You are right that certain traditional 'belief' has evolved as 'dogma'. That is hardly the same as making a dogmatic statement that slavery is okay one day and then the next day dogmatically declaring it to be wrong.

At least you are the first here to appear to suggest that the Catholic Church is open to change on doctrinal matters. Other members are howling their anger that it is 'unyielding' and 'unbending'. Only one of these positions can be correct.

In this instance I very much agree with the angry howlers, though, quite naturally, I'm neither angry nor howling about the situation ...

[amateur51]

You are right that certain traditional 'belief' has evolved as 'dogma'. That is hardly the same as making a dogmatic statement that slavery is okay one day and then the next day dogmatically declaring it to be wrong.

Does the name Galileo offer any traction here?

Not about slavery, y'understand

[Julien Sorel]

However, a Catholic cleric simply espousing traditional Catholic ethics seems perfectly reasonable and a quite natural thing to me.

If this refers to Archbishop Philip Tartaglia's remarks about David Cairns's death he either didn't know the cause (in which case he really shouldn't have been speculating, should he?) or if he did he was deliberately attempting to mislead his audience (since he would have known that Cairns's death had nothing to do with him being gay. Unless, of course, he was implying God killed him as a punishment. And I'd imagine that would have been presumptuous of Tartaglia).

in the same way as a Marxist will preach Marxism

OMG! You've met Alex Callinicos.

[vinteuil]

I



OMG! You've met Alex Callinicos.

... whose mother, I am pleased to learn, was the Hon. Ædgyth Bertha Milburg Mary Antonia Frances Lyon-Dalberg-Acton, the daughter of the second Lord Acton

[Julien Sorel]

Does the name Galileo offer any traction here?

Though Paul Feyerabend suggested the Inquisition had a point. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Against-Meth...2508833&sr=1-1

[Julien Sorel]

... whose mother, I am pleased to learn, was the Hon. Ædgyth Bertha Milburg Mary Antonia Frances Lyon-Dalberg-Acton, the daughter of the second Lord Acton

Indeed. Ahem.