Gay marriage thread

[Flosshilde]

The first step will be the appointment of a strong Pope who starts to clean up the mess which clearly destroyed his predecessor. In truth, for all the silly media-hype God's Rottweiller turned out in the end to be more like Paddy's Poodle. His resignation was an admission he couldn't cope with the scandals surrounding him, To his credit, he has removed himself to clear the way for someone more suitable for the task.

The scandals surrounding him were, to a large extent, created by himself through his actions & inactions as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

IMV, what the Church really needs now is the human equivalent of a border-collie to get the wayward clerical sheep back into some sort of common order.

Not sure about that - the Borders I see in the park are all obsessive about one thing - chasing balls. What the Catholic church needs (& they are not alone in this) is to become less obsessive about one thing - sex. It has little to do with the fundamentals of christianity, & diverts a lot of energy and attention away from the good things that can & are done. It also needs to use more of its huge wealth for 'good work', & less on admin. It would be interesting to see how much of its income an organisation like Oxfam spent on admin compared with the Catholic church (and other churches).

[ahinton]

The scandals surrounding him were, to a large extent, created by himself through his actions & inactions as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
...the Borders I see in the park are all obsessive about one thing - chasing balls. What the Catholic church needs (& they are not alone in this) is to become less obsessive about one thing - sex. It has little to do with the fundamentals of christianity, & diverts a lot of energy and attention away from the good things that can & are done. It also needs to use more of its huge wealth for 'good work', & less on admin. It would be interesting to see how much of its income an organisation like Oxfam spent on admin compared with the Catholic church (and other churches).

Agreed on all counts; in fact, this ultimately could turn out to be a seminal (sorry!) moment in the history of the Church if they get this right at last although, as I have suggested, it won't all come right without the establishment of a fundamentally different culture within the Church where issues relating to sexual conduct and the imposition of fear and guilt are "sent empty away" to be replaced permanently by far greater concentration upon the human compassion that is a cornerstone of Christian teachings.

[jean]

Has anyone seen the film Mea Maxima Culpa yet?

[Flosshilde]

Agreed on all counts; in fact, this ultimately could turn out to be a seminal (sorry!) moment in the history of the Church if they get this right at last although, as I have suggested, it won't all come right without the establishment of a fundamentally different culture within the Church where issues relating to sexual conduct and the imposition of fear and guilt are "sent empty away" to be replaced permanently by far greater concentration upon the human compassion that is a cornerstone of Christian teachings.

The new pope will have to be very careful about the cardinals he appoints - it will take a long time before a significant number of less hide-bound people are in place, which in itself suggests that he will have to be fairly young to be around long enough to make a difference. The youngest cardinal is from the Philippines, & is counted by some to be in the top 10 possibilities (http://gulfnews.com/news/world/phili...ates-1.1153391). Of course, mere youth is no guarantee of forward thinking!

[scottycelt]

You talk about Archbishop Tartaglia's frankness and honesty. Here's Archbishop Tartaglia, in another context: "If what I have heard is true about the relationship between physical and mental health of gay men, if it is true, then society has been very quiet about it. "Recently in Scotland there was a gay Catholic MP who died at the age of 44 or so and nobody said anything and why his body should just shut down at that age, obviously he could have had a disease which would have killed anyone, but you seem to hear so many stories about this kind of thing. "But society won't address it." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-18980379 "The archbishop knew David Cairns, met him regularly at events in Inverclyde, and got on well with him, and was personally involved in his funeral arrangements. He is sorry for any hurt which has resulted, there was certainly no offence or judgement intended in his words." Frankness and honesty?

Yes , searing frankness and honesty! The archbishop was making a point about 'political correctness' which results in refusing to talk about the possible results of certain sexual behaviour. He was not making a personal attack on the individual concerned. The Church (and I'm sure the archbishop) has also taught about the damage of promiscuous heterosexual behaviour. Some talk about the 'psychological damage' of Catholic belief and yet I do not remember a word of disapproval of such language from 'the politically correct'.. Why not? People also talk about the Church's 'obsession with sex' when it's perfectly clear that its opponents are at least equally or much more obsessed with the same issue. When criticising the Church they rarely talk about anything else! The Archbishop's point was a perfectly valid one. Why shouldn't any subject be raised even if some find it uncomfortable? Nobody seems to bother over much how uncomfortable people of religion feel. The archbishop might be right, he might be wrong, but surely you do not deny him his right to say so? If you do, you have only proved his point!

Anyway, I must learn to be a bit more cautious when rushing to defend senior Scottish clerics, musn't I? ...

[jean]

And I hate to say it, but the increased profile of African cardinals is likely to bring to the fore only increasingly conservative attitudes in the area of sexuality at any rate, if the Nigerian Anglican primate is anything to go by:

THE Primate, Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion), Most Rev. Nicholas D. Okoh, has cautioned Bishops not to fall prey to the influence of proponents of same-sex marriage.

Okoh spoke during the ordination, last week, of three Anglican Bishops - Ven. James Olusola Odedeji (Bishop of Lagos West), Very Rev. Simeon Oluwole Borokini (Bishop of Akure) and Ven. Geoffrey Enyinnaya Okorafor (Bishop of Egbu) at the Cathedral of St. Jude Ebute Metta, Lagos.

“You are already aware of the evil wind blowing across the Western world, by way of the homosexual agenda. They want to push it down everybody’s throat. Whether you like it or not, the government is doing so and the church is doing so. And as far as they are concerned, it is a matter of human right. But God’s right is not discussed. I want to say that you have a responsibility to this church, not to allow any influence from any quarters to corrupt our church,” the Primate said...

[amateur51]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21663605

A frank and honest assessment by the interim appointment at Edinburgh. Refreshingly devoid of some of waffle we got from Murphy-O'Connor recently. I agree with those who say that O'Brien is the worst crisis to hit the Scottish Catholic Church since the Reformation. Its sheer scale of mind-boggling clerical deceit and hypocrisy at the highest level makes it that damaging.

Of course , the Church will easily survive and bounce back. It always has done but this will take some time and, in the meantime, the Church will be widely mocked. It cannot really complain about that. The Church is constantly mocked anyway. Furthermore, the mockery has not been without clear justification in recent times.

The first step will be the appointment of a strong Pope who starts to clean up the mess which clearly destroyed his predecessor. In truth, for all the silly media-hype God's Rottweiller turned out in the end to be more like Paddy's Poodle. His resignation was an admission he couldn't cope with the scandals surrounding him, To his credit, he has removed himself to clear the way for someone more suitable for the task. It may have been a radical move but it is now plain it was an essential one.

IMV, what the Church really needs now is the human equivalent of a border-collie to get the wayward clerical sheep back into some sort of common order.

One would hope that the huge majority of cardinals gathering in Rome are now well aware of that ...at least one would hope.

To a point scotty, I think you're being a bit previous with your border collie

I don't believe that the O'Brien Affair is something exclusive to the Catholic Church in Scotland; he was the one who got caught and who was forced to face up to his failings, as Sir David Nicholson, Head of NHS is doing now on TV. The question arises about to whom is it that the Catholic Church is accountable here on planet earth?

I hope that commissioners of statuory services will also take the opportunity to reflect on the suitability of such an institution to provides services (including faith schools) to 'the whole community' in a largely secular society(I'd include the Anglicans and other religious bodies in this too). I'd see this also as an opportunity for the hierarchy to examine its policies and practices and governance so that it is a fit organisation to provide services, should it wish to continue to do so.

[Flosshilde]

Yes , searing frankness and honesty! The archbishop was making a point about 'political correctness' which results in refusing to talk about the possible results of certain sexual behaviour.

Oh dear - normal service has been resumed

Scotty, it's nothing to do with searing frankness & honesty - it's all about prejudice, assumptions & inuendo. Either the archbishop had certain information about David Cairns' health, in which case he should have said nothing unless given permission by Cairns' family (& then should have been more explicit), or he knew nothing, in which case he should have said nothing.

As for the mental health of gay men, have you & your church stopped to consider the impact on a young gay catholic's mental health the constant villification & condemnation might have?

[Pabmusic]

And I hate to say it, but the increased profile of African cardinals is likely to bring to the fore only increasingly conservative attitudes in the area of sexuality at any rate, if the Nigerian Anglican primate is anything to go by:
...

He's not alone:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/20/black-pope-contender-peter-turkson-gay-abuse-africa_n_2723040.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

[amateur51]

Oh dear - normal service has been resumed

Scotty, it's nothing to do with searing frankness & honesty - it's all about prejudice, assumptions & inuendo. Either the archbishop had certain information about David Cairns' health, in which case he should have said nothing unless given permission by Cairns' family (& then should have been more explicit), or he knew nothing, in which case he should have said nothing.

As for the mental health of gay men, have you & your church stopped to consider the impact on a young gay catholic's mental health the constant villification & condemnation might have?

Well said, Flossie

[amateur51]

Has anyone seen the film Mea Maxima Culpa yet?

Thank you for this jean - I haven't seen it but I'll try to seek it out soon

[Julien Sorel]

Yes , searing frankness and honesty! The archbishop was making a point about 'political correctness' which results in refusing to talk about the possible results of certain sexual behaviour.

Cairns died of acute pancreatitis. "David died of pancreatitis, a gallstone blocked his pancreatic tract. So that's what happened to David, which could have happened to anybody.

"To take a personal tragedy like this and seek to use it to make a political point, it's more than upsetting, it's deeply painful."

"David and his family were parishioners and are parishioners of the bishop and he may have things he wants to say, based on scripture or based on theology about the issue of equal marriage."

“But to speak in this way in complete ignorance, not knowing any of the facts either about David's life or about his medical condition, is just an unacceptable way for someone to behave who seeks to show moral leadership."

"It's added to our grief and our pain." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...sexuality.html

http://www.clydebanklive.co.uk/archbishop-anti-gay-scandal/

So where's the searing honesty and frankness in what Tartaglia said? What's searingly honest and frank about telling untruths? In what way was not referring to Cairns by name but referring to him as "a gay Catholic MP" not personal? What are these things ("if true") he's heard "about the relationship between physical and mental health of gay men"?

Where has promiscuity come from? He said nothing about promiscuity. Are you saying non-specifically promiscuity causes acute pancreatitis? It doesn't.

It's not a question of denying him the right to say something. He's talking nonsense. If he was ignorant of what killed Cairns and was assuming something else then that's deeply shabby, isn't it? He's also talking about sex. Not butterflies. Or the Vatican's labyrinthine financial arrangements.

It bothers me that some people of religion feel so uncomfortable about human sexuality they make stuff up to make a case for how uncomfortable they feel. And it bothers me that they project their discomfort in such a way as to make other people's lives miserable. I've no idea, but I wonder what it's like being a gay or lesbian teenager who is also a Catholic. And why should they be made miserable for simply being themselves? They could be the kindest, most loving, most compassionate people. They could do good works (which, as I understood, was meant to be at the heart of Catholic practice) ... but some searingly honest individual tells them they're at risk of dying of acute pancreatitis (which is untrue), and more generally are sinful freaks, against God and - mysteriously - against Nature.

[Demetrius]

The new pope will have to be very careful about the cardinals he appoints - it will take a long time before a significant number of less hide-bound people are in place, which in itself suggests that he will have to be fairly young to be around long enough to make a difference. The youngest cardinal is from the Philippines, & is counted by some to be in the top 10 possibilities (http://gulfnews.com/news/world/phili...ates-1.1153391). Of course, mere youth is no guarantee of forward thinking!

I remember these top ten candidates lists from the last time. When someone actually decided to include the later winner, the reaction around these parts was usually: "Yeah, Yeah, you just had to include a German, no way that's ever gonna happen, he is way too old/conservative/frail/likely to turn it down etc." The lists often had more to do with the hopes of the non-catholic listwriters than anything else. Candidates that were perceived as reformers, as a frech young wind, or indeed candidates from South America/Africa to get away from the eurocentric appearence of a church whose growth areas are nowhere near Europe.

Whether the Cardinals adopt any of these considerations is anyones guess. For the most part they are old men whose ideas and thoughts are not necessarily in accord with the media. When they make their decision, we will then probably be offered explanations by the media why they decided on this man, regardless of what they said before. The explanation will undoubtedly fall short of the truth. The pushing around candidates and the shifting alliances before a final decision in a quorum are hard to understand if you witness them in their entirety. When you are outside the door all you will get is the smoke-screen at the end.

We might get a old pope, or a young pope, or a black pope, or a italian pope, or a old black conservative pope or a young italian reformer .... whatever a shaky coalition of a dozen different factions will agree on. (heck, they need around 80 people in agreement to get it done).

[MrGongGong]

Yes , searing frankness and honesty! The archbishop was making a point about 'political correctness' which results in refusing to talk about the possible results of certain sexual behaviour. He was not making a personal attack on the individual concerned.

YES he is, that's a classic christian "get out of jail" card ...... which is one reason why as a teenager I became so disillusioned with the whole sorry edifice

stop defending these bad people

The Archbishop's point was a perfectly valid one. Why shouldn't any subject be raised even if some find it uncomfortable? Nobody seems to bother over much how uncomfortable people of religion feel. The archbishop might be right, he might be wrong, but surely you do not deny him his right to say so? If you do, you have only proved his point!

He can make his "point" all he likes and invent some daft conspiracy theory to back it up
but it's becoming more and more plain to see how by developing a culture of repression the church (and not just the Rome one ) has facilitated terrible abuse
which is a bit of a "no shit Sherlock" situation

It's much much more fundamental than the "few rouge priests" that they would have us believe i'm afraid

It's interesting to note that everyone I have spoken to about this who was in their youth part of church music of all brands has a "story to tell" about what went on, not all are as terrible as some but some things are so deeply embedded that I think maybe they should follow the advice of Edwin Collins ("Rip it up and start again" )

[Pabmusic]

...Of course , the Church will easily survive and bounce back. It always has done but this will take some time and, in the meantime, the Church will be widely mocked. It cannot really complain about that. The Church is constantly mocked anyway. Furthermore, the mockery has not been without clear justification in recent times...

I wouldn't be quite so confident. Times are very different now, with instant mass communication. I think the Catholic Church will have to do at least two things if it is to have a chance to recover. First, it will have to elect a 'progressive' Pope (if that is not an oxymoron); and second, it will have to abandon the prohibition on priests marrying.

The rule requiring celibacy is not that old anyway. Remember that Lucrezia Borgia was one of the eight (?) children of Alexander VI.