Gay marriage thread

[scottycelt]

I suppose some of them might have been drunk or stoned and put their cross in the wrong place, but otherwise if they weren't why on earth would they vote UKIP? The UK leaving the EU is what UKIP is for. That and being against immigration, of course, for people who don't think the Tories aren't against immigration enough.



That would be a daft thing to do then, wouldn't it? Given that UKIP exists to campaign for the UK leaving the EU.

I don't appear to imagine anything about how a no to 'Gay Marriage' party would have got on: I am absolutely certain that it wouldn't have got much beyond the Raving Looney Party. Do you really think otherwise?

So not only are thousands of voters 'silly' and 'stupid' they also must be 'drunk' and 'stoned'. Such charming 'liberal tolerance'!

Tactical and protest voting is nothing new and not particularly 'daft' really. It can even be claimed to be thoroughly sensible if the alternatives are deemed to be worse.

I don't know how you can claim with 'absolute certainty' that a 'No To Gay Marriage' candidate wouldn't have 'got much beyond' the Raving Looney Party. You could be right, of course.

Even if you are, I might humbly suggest (devoid of 'absolute certainty') that a 'Yes To Gay Marriage' candidate might well have fared little better.

Voters, understandably, tend to vote for established parties (or well-known figures) rather than obscure fringe candidates.

So the point you appear to be making has little validity and is lop-sidedly subjective, imo.

[Julien Sorel]

On the surface it is wholly illogical to vote for UKIP if one is ardently pro-EU.

Why on the surface? It is wholly illogical. It's like an animal rights activist voting for the society for the promotion of vivisection party candidate.

The UKIP vote in Eastleigh was an anti-EU / anti-immigration vote. Yes, these themes have been around before: but as you must have noticed they've intensified during The Great Austerity. Sections of the press (and, indeed, non UKIP politicians) have predicted a tidal wave of Rumanian and Bulgarian immigrants - UKIP constantly harped on this. Cameron's EU renegotiation strategy was an attempt to tap and placate internal to his party and external hostility to the EU on a stay in but control the beast basis with exit an unspoken option that I'd imagine the Tory leadership will play with but hopes to whoever doesn't happen.

They put up as anti-EU anti-immigration candidate as they could in Eastleigh. It didn't work, because voters saw UKIP as the consistent, campaigning anti-EU anti-immigration party. It doubtless helped consolidate the LibDem vote.

[MrGongGong]

"Deluded nuttery"

A summary

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/special-report-what-voters-should-know-about-ukip-8517997.html

I certainly don't want to live in the world that they want

[french frank]

Many voters are not slavishly tied to a party label and are well aware of the value of tactical voting if that might prove to be a more potent message directed at the powers-that-be than any of the alternatives.

The argument here is what particular message of UKIP's was the most potent.

Voting for UKIP at a by-election is not going to mean immediate UK withdrawal from the EU. I suspect that every person who is at all interested in casting a vote is also intelligent enough to know that.

But it will strengthen UKIP's argument that there is popular support for it - and for stopping immigration from the EU - if that's what they want to press for, which it is.

I don't know how you can claim with 'absolute certainty' that a 'No To Gay Marriage' candidate wouldn't have 'got much beyond' the Raving Looney Party. You could be right, of course.

Even if you are, I might humbly suggest (devoid of 'absolute certainty') that a 'Yes To Gay Marriage' candidate might well have fared little better.

Which suggests that they aren't much bothered either way.

[Flosshilde]

UKIP wouldn't be too keen on Leviticus 19: 33-34:

"And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God."

That one is sensible - a sort of 'do as you would be done by'.

[Julien Sorel]

So not only are thousands of voters 'silly' and 'stupid' they also must be 'drunk' and 'stoned'. Such charming 'liberal tolerance'!

Sorry I missed this. I was exaggerating for effect, but I have not said anything about voters being silly, nor did I say they were drunk or stoned. I was replying to your: "Do you think everyone who votes for UKIP in a by-election automatically wants the UK to leave the EU?" Well, yes, actually, or they are being very perverse. Because UKIP is for immediate UK withdrawal from the EU (and anti-immigration). That's basically it. So vote UKIP and you are voting for the UK to leave the EU. Again, it's like an animal rights activist voting for the Promote Vivisection Party (if such a thing existed). Why would someone who is pro-EU membership vote for the one clearly, absolutely, anti-EU party?

I suppose you mean liberal in the American sense of anything left of Regan on a particularly conservative day, but please don't call me liberal. I'm not.

I agree a pro-Gay Marriage party wouldn't have got that many votes: you are the one claiming Gay Marriage (hostility towards) was a significant factor in the by-election. But that's ignoring the obvious: anti-EU feeling and anti-immigration feeling. The latter, of course, is generally more evident at times of economic hardship (hence the surge for Nationalist and fascist parties in Greece, Hungary and indeed Italy).

[Julien Sorel]

That one is sensible - a sort of 'do as you would be done by'.

Indeed. They are a set of laws, codes, taboos, which require historical / archeological interpretation, not religious (in any sense) application. Nothing like as detailed or as enigmatic, perhaps, but Draco's laws and Solon's revision and overturning of some of them are documents of early Greek ancient history. They also, IIRC, make copious reference to the gods (but not, of course, to God).

Sadly humanity seems to have done quite well at the judging people, killing them fir being different bits of Leviticus (if not in Leviticus's specific contexts) and very poorly at the hospitality towards and care for strangers stuff.

[Flosshilde]

My solicitor has advised me to issue the following statement: "I'm not a deluded nutter".

Thank you.

But if you are a deluded nutter you would obviously think you weren't. So is your solicitor saying that you aren't, or do you have medical opinion on your side?

[Beef Oven]

But if you are a deluded nutter you would obviously think you weren't. So is your solicitor saying that you aren't, or do you have medical opinion on your side?

My doctor asked me some basic questions to see whether I was deluded - you know, stuff like how many symphonies and string quartets has Furtwangler composed? Is Luxembourg a founder member, of the EU? Because I was able to give the obvious answers, he concluded that I was normal.

[Flosshilde]

Sorry - that's very poor evidence. If he'd asked you who the Prime Minister is, that would have been a different matter.

[MrGongGong]

he concluded that I was normal.

Normal ?
Like Henry ?
or like the setting on my washing machine ?

or even like this ?

[Bryn]

Sorry - that's very poor evidence. If he'd asked you who the Prime Minister is, that would have been a different matter.

If a doctor asked me that I'd probably respond, "of which country?".

[Beef Oven]

Normal ?
Like Henry ?
or like the setting on my washing machine ?

or even like this ?

Love it! Great version (as usual) I'm a big Laibach fan

[MrGongGong]

Love it! Great version (as usual) I'm a big Laibach fan

so by definition you can't be "normal"

[Beef Oven]

so by definition you can't be "normal"

By the by, 'by definition', I asume you mean by your definition? By which, nothing is normal!! Off for an hour's walk in Epping Forest. Bye Bye