Gay marriage thread

[amateur51]

Why on earth do you insist on bending over backwards to defend these people ?
You can ditch the church you know.
It's incredible the hold that this organisation has over people in spite of everything it has done.

Well is it that incredible when so many of its adherents are brain-washed from the cot to the grave?

Let me be clear, there are many good people who are Catholics, and many who are former-Catholics (of course we all know that officially you can't be a fortmer-Catholic - how's that for brain-washing ). It is the abuse of power within the institution that causes grave concern in society.

[ahinton]

adults when remembering the abuse they suffered as children say that they knew they would not be believed if they accused their priest. They had been brought up by their family to believe that the priest was God's representative, sometimes seen as a family member. He would groom them into thinking that they should always obey, and their parents could not begin to think that their father in the church would commit such acts. Often, even the police would not listen to any allegations. This entrenchment of power has done huge damage, not only in matters of sexuality, but in other aspects, such as employment in countries like Ireland, where the church was too often an arbiter.

This is undoubtedly true but, again, as I have suggested above, this fear is by no means confined to the Catholic Church and its priests; indeed, the responses to the Andrade case that have recently been aired (please redact this bit, FF, if you feel the need to do so) demonstrate an almost identical widespread fear on the part of victims that they would not be believed if they report abuse to the relevant authorities and, in some cases, they have evidence of their reports being rejected on the grounds of disbelief on the part of those authorities.

One of the men who have accused Cardinal O'Brien has said that as a young ordinand, he knew that the bishop had complete power in directing his life, and resigned the priesthood to save his integrity as a person.

I'm frankly tired of hearing all the arguments supporting this rotten institution in the face of the domination it still has over people's existence, and nothing will change until the whole Church is reformed, an unlikely event. Those who wish to continue the whole cycle of sin, guilt, and suffering are perfectly free to do so and believe whatever they wish, but please, let's get rid of all the immense and utterly damaging power that the Vatican continues to exert.

If Cardinal O'Brien's accuser did indeed resign from the Church on the specific grounds that you cite and if his case is far from uncommon in this regard, it is clear that a fundamental reform of the Church is vital for its continued existence and that, if this does not happen and is seen to happen as it should, the Church will lay itself open to a very real risk of falling apart over time. The reason why I say so is that this kind of behaviour runs entirely counter to the teaching of Christ and of the kind of compassionate behaviour of humans towards their fellow humans that was so clearly advocated by Christ and that to encounter it within what is supposed to be His Church makes it all the more deplorable. I hope and think that I can be permitted to say this without being a Christian.

[ahinton]

Well is it that incredible when so many of its adherents are brain-washed from the cot to the grave?

Good point!

Let me be clear, there are many good people who are Catholics, and many who are former-Catholics

Indeed.

of course we all know that officially you can't be a former-Catholic - how's that for brain-washing

Oh yes you can! It's just that the Catholic Church still seems hell bent (sorry!) on refusing to accept what are instances of those things that appear to exercise and perplex scotty so much, namely "facts"! - the attitude being one of "go find some sand and stick your head in it"...

It is the abuse of power within the institution that causes grave concern in society.

Indeed - just as it is when the same kinds of transgression occur elsewhere.

[Pabmusic]

Well is it that incredible when so many of its adherents are brain-washed from the cot to the grave?...

But everyone is born an atheist

[amateur51]

[QUOTE=ahinton;266873]Good point!


Indeed.


Oh yes you can! It's just that the Catholic Church still seems hell bent (sorry!) on refusing to accept what are instances of those things that appear to exercise and perplex scotty so much, namely "facts"! - the attitude being one of "go find some sand and stick your head in it"...


Indeed - just as it is when the same kinds of transgression occur elsewhere./QUOTE]Indeed but in most contemporary institutions (even the LibDems ) there is a constitution of some sort included in which is a complaints procedure clearly laying out the responsibilities of the Executive in addressing such matters, timeframe, etc. I am not aware that religious institutions have adopted such a framework. Recent experience would suggest that they need to look at the role and treatment of whistle-blowers too[

[amateur51]

But everyone is born an atheist

Surely an infant is dedicated to food, comfort and warmth and is more likely to be entirely apathetic about deities and thus an apatheist

[Pabmusic]

Surely an infant is dedicated to food, comfort and warmth and is more likely to be entirely apathetic about deities and thus an apatheist

Picky

[amateur51]

Picky

Princess Picky, svp

[Pabmusic]

Princess Picky, svp

I shall try to remember.

[Julien Sorel]

There is a framework, hence Cardinal Ratzinger's (as he was) now (in)famous letter to the Bishops http://www.bishop-accountability.org...ulaEnglish.htm

This is taken from an activist site but appears elsewhere on the internet: I'm not sure all the people who have queued up to interpret it (including that blood-soaked plagiarist Christopher Hitchens) did so from a position of knowledge - what it actually meant in terms of Church discipline. I can't see, for example, where it is in the text Hitchens got the idea that Ratzinger threatens whistle-blowers with excommunication. Quite clearly acts of child abuse were covered up and quite rightly that's damaged the confidence of Catholics in their Church (because there's a church tax in Germany it's possible to see the numbers of Catholics across the country who have actively as it were left the Church in the wake of scandals about child abuse in Bavaria especially).

As a side note, while not excusing anything, scottycelt is right about attitude changes (I wouldn't use the word convention, myself, I'd hope it goes deeper than that) where child abuse in particular and sexual abuse in general are concerned. When I was an undergraduate in the late 70s early 80s two male academics in the department were known to have a predatory attitude towards female undergraduates (and I'd guess postgrads). These were young women, often teenagers, in many cases away from home for the first time. I was directly told by one fellow student that her tutor had suggested that unless she was compliant he'd mark her essays down. The academic in question was very close to the head of department, and when two other academics - one male, one female - voiced concerns to him they were left in no doubt that the best option would be to mind their own business.

The current controversies over Assange, Galloway's remarks, and in the SWP don't suggest the political left can consider itself a model to be followed (though in fairness many of us on the political left and in the SWP won't let those matters drop) and the recent news that Southwark police's 'Sapphire' unit were pressurising women into dropping rape claims to improve their clear up rates suggests how rhetorical much progress may be.

[ahinton]

in most contemporary institutions (even the LibDems ) there is a constitution of some sort included in which is a complaints procedure clearly laying out the responsibilities of the Executive in addressing such matters, timeframe, etc. I am not aware that religious institutions have adopted such a framework.

I think that Julien Sorel has answered that one but having a complaints procedure in place neither means that it is necessarily adequate nor - more importantly - that potential complainants are necessarily any more likely to complain; complaints procedures are only as good as their structures allow them to be but are of little use in any event unless they're used.

Recent experience would suggest that they need to look at the role and treatment of whistle-blowers too

Indeed so.

[amateur51]

I think that Julien Sorel has answered that one but having a complaints procedure in place neither means that it is necessarily adequate nor - more importantly - that potential complainants are necessarily any more likely to complain; complaints procedures are only as good as their structures allow them to be but are of little use in any event unless they're used.


Indeed so.

I think also that they're only as good as the initial response to their use, witness the Project Sapphire débacle and Clegg's shameful twisting and turning recently over the complaints against Lord Rennard and how he [Clegg] didn't deal with it properly in the first place. Training and review are crucial parts of the process.

[ahinton]

I think also that they're only as good as the initial response to their use, witness the Project Sapphire débacle and Clegg's shameful twisting and turning recently over the complaints against Lord Rennard and how he [Clegg] didn't deal with it properly in the first place. Training and review are crucial parts of the process.

Agreed entirely.

[scottycelt]

I think also that they're only as good as the initial response to their use, witness the Project Sapphire débacle and Clegg's shameful twisting and turning recently over the complaints against Lord Rennard and how he [Clegg] didn't deal with it properly in the first place. Training and review are crucial parts of the process.

Easier said than done, amsey. In any case I'm not exactly sure what Rennard is supposed to have done which might involve the police. It's so easy for some of us spouting-off on a forum about what Clegg should have done or not have done, in glorious hindsight. Such matters are very sensitive and one must tread carefully. Some women do make false/exaggerated accusations. It has been known.

I'm not Clegg's greatest fan, but anyone trying to deal with such a tricky situation has my utmost sympathy.

[amateur51]

Easier said than done, amsey. In any case I'm not exactly sure what Rennard is supposed to have done which might involve the police. It's so easy for some of us spouting-off on a forum about what Clegg should have done or not have done, in glorious hindsight. Such matters are very sensitive and one must tread carefully. Some women do make false/exaggerated accusations. It has been known.

I'm not Clegg's greatest fan, but anyone trying to deal with such a tricky situation has my utmost sympathy.

Sorry scotty, I just don't buy this 'easy with hindsight' stuff. He could have tried not lying to the media for a start. Even in the absence of a formal complaint it is possible to have a very serious meeting with your CEO and to make very clear your feelings about these allegations, give him a verbal warning, produce a minute and file it. The great dollop does not appear even to have done that. Is he a bad man? I don't know but I do know that he's way out of his depth and shouldn't be trusted with responsibility for an empty brown paper bag ever again.

As for your cheap shot about women and lying, as a mere male I'd advise you, on the basis of recent evidence, to join me in keeping our respective gobs firmly shut on such matters