Gay marriage thread

[MrGongGong]

However, as far as I can see no mention has been made here of the current heterosexual 'scandal' in the Liberal Democrat Party and the much more serious one in the Mid-Staffs NHS. I use the word 'current' deliberately as these events are much more recent than the huge majority of those which have so damaged the Church. The Mid-Staffs case is said to have resulted in literally hundreds of lives being lost.

I guess neither of those organisations sets itself up as a morally superior force that should be allowed to dictate how others live their lives in the same way that the church(es) do......

There are big mistakes in the NHS but the NHS doesn't as far as I know claim some kind of supernatural divine right to pass judgement on others.
THAT makes a huge difference particularly when it appears that this man has spent so much time viciously condemning those who (if the allegations are true) have shared his own sexuality (allegedly of course)

[Ferretfancy]

That , my friend, reads like code for "yeah we know we are a load of evil bastards but never mind, we'll square it with him upstairs once a week and carry on as if nothing has happened" ...........

For the many many people that the church has damaged I don't think it has much to be "happy" about

Yes indeed MrGongGong. When the Pope's resignation was announced, Archbishop Nicholls was asked how he felt about it in the light of all the church's history of abuse.
He replied that the church certainly had been having a difficult time lately, but he made no mention of the difficulties that the victims faced. That sums it up for me, none of these people want to see justice, they just want to uphold the tottering structure of the Catholic Church.

[Barbirollians]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/cardinals-hatred-of-gay-marriage-veering-towards-poignant-2013022560821

[Barbirollians]

The more one reads about the current state of the Catholic church I find myself becoming surprisingly sympathetic to Martin Luther .

[Pabmusic]

... my point was that the child abuse cases involving clerics were overwhelming homosexual in nature. These may be uncomfortable facts for you but that does not make them any less true! Police authorities confirm that the Church has been fully co-operating in rooting out and handing over any alleged child-abusers for years.

However, as far as I can see no mention has been made here of the current heterosexual 'scandal' in the Liberal Democrat Party and the much more serious one in the Mid-Staffs NHS....So why the comparative forum silence on these other wholly secular scandals ... why do you think that is, Flossie ?

Scotty, I think you are in danger of becoming an apologist for the Catholic Church, using any fallacious argument to win a few points. This one is the tu quoque fallacy - 'you too' - that attempts to bolster the Church's covering up abuse by pointing out that the opponents don't make a fuss about other scandals. Even better if you can add a homosexual -v- heterosexual slant.

The fact is that the Catholic Church is a huge, world-wide organisation that is so deeply mired in sex scandals - hugely and world-wide - that any attempt to contrast them with events in the UK seems bewildering. The Catholic Church is vociferously strong on preaching sexual behaviour - what we should and shouldn't do in our private lives (usually in our bedrooms) - that the natural contrast to draw is between its own teachings and the actions of its teachers. Add to that the fact that priests are often in positions of real power in Catholic communities, then the Church's systematic covering-up of abuse is not only serious abuse in itself but sits firmly in the realm of evil. And as an atheist, I do not use the word 'evil' - with its religious connotations - lightly.

[gurnemanz]

Private Eye joke: The Pope behaved like a good Catholic and pulled out early.

[scottycelt]

The more one reads about the current state of the Catholic church I find myself becoming surprisingly sympathetic to Martin Luther .

Despite its "ironic" nature that does contain a fair point. It is easy to criticise and become disillusioned with some officials within the Catholic Church. They are human and so are the laity. Well, I never ...

However, if the Church survived and then continued to thrive following the Reformation and the even greater abuses which preceded it there is little doubt it will rise above its current difficulties.

That is not to make light of some of the abuses by a tiny minority of individual clerics, merely to disappoint some here who appear to believe the Catholic Church is 'tottering' and about to collapse.

Anyone who fancies a flutter might find they will get far, far more generous odds than even the 33/1 against the now fallen Cardinal O'Brien.

[MrGongGong]

I'm obviously no longer a part of any church
but Christianity would be much better without "St" Paul

[Flosshilde]

Scotty, I think you are in danger of becoming an apologist for the Catholic Church,

'Becoming' ?

[Mr Pee]

I'm obviously no longer a part of any church
but Christianity would be much better without "St" Paul

Well it would be better for you, at least.

[MrGongGong]

Well it would be better for you, at least.

Nothing to do with me at all
but loosing the dreadful sexual guilt nonsense would be healthy imv

[Pabmusic]

'Becoming' ?

Well, I always try to be polite.

[scottycelt]

Scotty, I think you are in danger of becoming an apologist for the Catholic Church, using any fallacious argument to win a few points. This one is the tu quoque fallacy - 'you too' - that attempts to bolster the Church's covering up abuse by pointing out that the opponents don't make a fuss about other scandals. Even better if you can add a homosexual -v- heterosexual slant.

The fact is that the Catholic Church is a huge, world-wide organisation that is so deeply mired in sex scandals - hugely and world-wide - that any attempt to contrast them with events in the UK seems bewildering. The Catholic Church is vociferously strong on preaching sexual behaviour - what we should and shouldn't do in our private lives (usually in our bedrooms) - that the natural contrast to draw is between its own teachings and the actions of its teachers. Add to that the fact that priests are often in positions of real power in Catholic communities, then the Church's systematic covering-up of abuse is not only serious abuse in itself but sits firmly in the realm of evil. And as an atheist, I do not use the word 'evil' - with its religious connotations - lightly.

No, I'm merely pointing out the double-standards that exist here and I regret to say that your post illustrates that admirably, Pab.

The media in general has been very fair in reporting all of these recent scandals not just those that some others solely and gleefully pounce upon as their particular objects of hate. The Mitchell and MacAlpine cases were other prime examples.

I have repeated ad nauseum the serious nature of child abuse. The majority of cases occur in secular homes and family members or 'friends' are responsible. Catholic priests who commit such crimes in direct contradiction of Church teaching will get no sympathy from me or any other lay Catholic. Such behaviour is not only evil it is a total betrayal of their Church. It is also true to repeat that the huge majority of the cases happened decades ago and things have moved on from people formerly considering child sexual abuse as "sad" rather than "criminal". It is also true to state (however unfashionable to state it here and elsewhere) that the huge majority of child-abuse cases involving Catholic priests were homosexual in nature involving youths and boys. Why are you accusing me of 'introducing' it to this discussion, when it is already a well-known fact?. Are you now suddenly in favour of "cover-ups" ... ?

The Catholic Church does not 'preach' it merely interprets and teaches and acknowledges that each and every one of us (including the Pope) is a sinner.The charge of hypocrisy is a bit tame as we are all hypocrites to a greater or lesser degree.

When the same level of outrage and venom is hurled by members of this forum towards their very own untouchable "sacred cows" like the NHS, due to disastrously serious failures of management there, your rather subjective point about my posts might not seem quite so flimsy, Pab!

[MrGongGong]

The Catholic Church does not 'preach' it merely interprets and teaches and acknowledges that each and every one of us (including the Pope) is a sinner.The charge of hypocrisy is a bit tame as we are all hypocrites to a greater or lesser degree.

aaah yes it's the "get out of jail free card"
and is utter crap that simply doesn't wash anymore

There is a HUGE difference between me telling my adult children not to drink too much when they go to the pub and me sitting at home with a bottle of malt and systematically and knowingly being complicit in decades of terrible abuse and trying to cover it up. Both might be "hypocritical" but to equate one with the other is simply outrageous.

What is dangerous about the Catholic (and others as well) church is that otherwise intelligent people seem to have no problem in endlessly forgiving the church yet carry on trying to tell others how to live their lives.

[scottycelt]

aaah yes it's the "get out of jail free card"
and is utter crap that simply doesn't wash anymore

There is a HUGE difference between me telling my adult children not to drink too much when they go to the pub and me sitting at home with a bottle of malt and systematically and knowingly being complicit in decades of terrible abuse and trying to cover it up. Both might be "hypocritical" but to equate one with the other is simply outrageous.

What is dangerous about the Catholic (and others as well) church is that otherwise intelligent people seem to have no problem in endlessly forgiving the church yet carry on trying to tell others how to live their lives.

I'm deeply disturbed that a gentle forum soul like yourself you is 'outraged' at such comparisons, Mr GG ...

Is there very much difference with the Catholic Church teaching its flock how it should behave and, in turn, a non-believer like Mr GG telling the Catholic Church how it should behave?

I agree entirely ... there is a HUGE difference, Mr GG!