Gay marriage thread

[Mandryka]

I am neither yours, nor am I especially old, nor am I Chinese or made of anything that anyone could reasonably call "china" in the ceramic sense, what I have to say about anything is my business and your opinion thereof is yours and yours alone and, finally and for the record, the portion of my post to which yours is as pathetic a response as anyone could try not to have to hope for comprises a mere 37 words - "so many", indeed! Never mind; back to the topic for those wishing seriously to debate it!

I wouldn't bother replying, alistair, but your reply so spectacularly illustrates the point I was making that I have to congratulate you on backing me up so perfectly, even if it was not your intention so to do.

Oddly enough, your liner notes for an old Sorabji disc I had were a model of clarity: but then, you were probably paid to write them. Does one have to pay you to get intelligible prose out of you? Shame if one does, but we're all in business, aren't we?

Actually, I enjoyed your notes a lot more than the music, which was a load of old Parsi guff.

[jean]

'Invert' is a respected term, favoured by such esteemed inverts of the past as C.Scott Moncrieff.

And Radclyffe Hall.

But nobody uses it now.

I conclude you must be very old indeed.

[Mandryka]

And Radclyffe Hall.

But nobody uses it now.

I conclude you must be very old indeed.

I use it and am not alone in using it.

Anyway, the term 'gay' was hijacked in the late seventies; anyone who objected was railroaded and accused of being a reactionary. I never liked the word, anyway: afaic, it's a crap word to describe being happy and it's a crap word to describe homosexuals.

Of course, amongst many people under 25, the word 'gay' now means 'crap' (thanks, in large part, to one Mr. Moyles) - and the homosexual activists really can't object to this, as it's exactly the same trick they pulled thirty odd years ago. Language changes, and we can't do much about it.

But we can - this still (just about) being a free country, despite your best efforts - take our pick of the many words available to us to describe many different things. Which is what I'm doing.

And, jean - let's keep it polite - I'm CONSIDERABLY younger than you.

[scottycelt]

I have absolutely no objection to scotty objecting to same-sex marriage.

Well, Flossie, that's really kind of you in making such a startling, ground-breaking pronouncement but I have to admit that I've never really quite got that impression before ...

What I do object to is a) his insistence that the meaning of the word 'marriage' should not, indeed cannot, change when it quite clearly can and has; and b) his & his leader's erroneous belief that the institution of marriage has never changed, when it quite clearly has.

Oh, I have little doubt that, eventually, the definition of 'the state of marriage' will be radically changed (Indeed I see it has already in Merriam-Webster) which means of course that it is no longer 'marriage' in the sense that it has always been before.

I understand that in the US (where such silliness always tends to originate) people are already referring to 'opposite-sex marriage' as well as 'same-sex marriage'. There is indeed nowt as queer as folk, Flossie ! ... (no pun intended)

So what's coming next, Flossie? 'Bisexual Marriage For Four' ? The definition of 'white' to be changed because David Cameron says the colour discriminates against 'black' and he wants to change it because he is a Conservative ? Who knows, Flossie, who really knows ...

No [his views should not be respected], because his views are based on a fallacy.

Ahhhh ...

So it is logical to assume that any view with which Flossie disagrees he considers to be based on a fallacy, so none of these will be deemed worthy of Flossie's much-valued respect?

Honesty is 'king', Flossie ...

[MrGongGong]

It's not 'marriage'
it's MARRIAGE

nothing to do with 'silliness' in the USA
like a suit it means more than one specific thing

Have you always had a problem with concrete language ?
If I asked you to 'draw the curtains' would you return with a drawing on a piece of paper ?

[scottycelt]

It's not 'marriage'
it's MARRIAGE

nothing to do with 'silliness' in the USA
like a suit it means more than one specific thing

Have you always had a problem with concrete language ?
If I asked you to 'draw the curtains' would you return with a drawing on a piece of paper ?

No, I would tell you to 'draw the curtains' yourself ...

If language is 'concrete' then is that not the equivalent of it being 'set in stone', Mr GG ... ?

[MrGongGong]

Language isn't concrete ........ it changes, words mean more than one thing

(and leave out the "Stairway" Quote please )

[ahinton]

I wouldn't bother replying, alistair

But you did.

your reply so spectacularly illustrates the point I was making

It illustrates nothing beyond itself, as Stravinsky might have said, but then you weren't making a point in the first place.

that I have to congratulate you on backing me up so perfectly, even if it was not your intention so to do

You "have" to do nothing of the kind - or indeed anything at all, especially as I have not "backed you up" and have never done anything "perfectly".

Oddly enough, your liner notes for an old Sorabji disc I had were a model of clarity: but then, you were probably paid to write them.

I have no idea which disc that might have been. One does one's best on such occasions. On what evidence do you make assumptions as to my having been paid to write the notes concerned?

Does one have to pay you to get intelligible prose out of you? Shame if one does, but we're all in business, aren't we?

Some, rather than all, of us are but, since I can assure anyone who might have any doubts about the subject that I am not paid a cent for anything that I write here, the answer to your question is a resounding no.

Actually, I enjoyed your notes a lot more than the music, which was a load of old Parsi guff.

What you may or may not enjoy is up to you. I have no idea, however, what might constitute "a load of old Parsi guff" and I doubt that you do either, assuming there to be such a phenomenon in the first place.

[MrGongGong]

"Parsi guff" ........ what a great name for a band

This (is on the wrong thread I know ) is wonderful

http://www.normanrecords.com/records/81871-sote-dastgaah

(go on Beefy you KNOW you want it !)

[kernelbogey]

Ladies and Gentlemen

There has been a complaint about a recent post on this thread. While the matter is being considered I would urge careful thought about what you post and the language you use.

I have not been following this thread but it seems to me that it should be possible to debate its content without resort to ad hominem attacks.

I would also urge those who resent being accused of using homophobic language, or who attack the language that is current in the sphere under discussion here, to consider that language represents a set of values to those who use it and an attack on that language may be percieved personally.

BW, kb

[Julien Sorel]

"Parsi guff" ........ what a great name for a band

This (is on the wrong thread I know ) is wonderful

http://www.normanrecords.com/records/81871-sote-dastgaah

(go on Beefy you KNOW you want it !)

I don't know about "Beefy" but I do. Thanks for the link .

Argh. You've just cost me some more money . Interesting virtual shoppe .

[Julien Sorel]

The definition of 'white' to be changed

white
Pronunciation: /wʌɪt/

Definition of white
adjective

1of the colour of milk or fresh snow, due to the reflection of all visible rays of light; the opposite of black:a sheet of white paper
very pale:her face was white with fear
(of a plant) having white flowers or pale-coloured fruit.
(of a tree) having light-coloured bark.
(of wine) made from white grapes, or dark grapes with the skins removed, and having a yellowish colour.
British (of coffee or tea) served with milk or cream.
(of food such as bread or rice) light in colour as a result of a refining process.
(of glass) transparent; colourless.

2 (also White) belonging to or denoting a human group having light-coloured skin (chiefly used of peoples of European extraction):a white farming community
relating to white people:white Australian culture
South African, historical reserved by law for those classified as white.

3 historical counter-revolutionary or reactionary. Contrasted with red (sense 2 of the adjective).

noun

1 [mass noun] white colour or pigment:garnet-red flowers flecked with white
white clothes or material:he was dressed from head to foot in white
(whites) white clothes, especially as worn for playing cricket or tennis, as naval uniform, or in the context of washing:wash whites separately to avoid them being dulled
white wine:a bottle of house white
(White) the player of the white pieces in chess or draughts.
[count noun] a white thing, in particular the white ball (the cue ball) in snooker or billiards.

2 the visible pale part of the eyeball around the iris.

3 the outer part (white when cooked) which surrounds the yolk of an egg; the albumen.

4 (also White) a member of a light-skinned people, especially one of European extraction.

5 [with modifier] a white or cream butterfly which has dark veins or spots on the wings and can be a serious crop pest.
Pieris and other genera, family Pieridae. See also cabbage white

verb
[with object] archaic

paint or turn (something) white:your passion hath whited your face

Phrases

whited sepulchre
literary a hypocrite.
[with biblical allusion to Matt 23:27]
white man's burden
the task, believed by white colonizers to be incumbent upon them, of imposing Western civilization on the black inhabitants of European colonies.
[from Rudyard Kipling's The White Man's Burden (1899)]
whiter than white
extremely white: the detergent that washes whiter than white
morally beyond reproach: they expect standards of behaviour whiter than white

Phrasal Verbs

white out
(of vision) become impaired by exposure to sudden bright light.
(of a person) lose colour vision as a prelude to losing consciousness.
white something out

1obliterate a mistake with white correction fluid.

2impair someone’s vision with a sudden bright light.

Derivatives

whitely
adverb
whiteness
noun
whitish
adjective

Origin:

late Old English hwīt, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch wit and German weiss, also to wheat

The term white has been used to refer to the skin colour of Europeans or people of European extraction since the early 17th century. Unlike other labels for skin colour such as red or yellow, white has not been generally used in a derogatory way. In modern contexts there is a growing tendency to prefer to use terms which relate to geographical origin rather than skin colour: hence the current preference in the US for African American rather than black and European rather than white. (OED online)



Also, Kazimir Malevich http://www.moma.org/collection/objec...bject_id=80385

[jean]

Ah, I see - almost certainly derived from

...late Old English hwīt, of Germanic origin...

But since we are back in the area of irreducible semantic minima, I will have something more to say when I've got time.


[Ed: Quote deleted as it breaks House Rules - ff]

[scottycelt]

white
Pronunciation: /wʌɪt/

Definition of white
adjective

1of the colour of milk or fresh snow, due to the reflection of all visible rays of light; the opposite of black:a sheet of white paper
very pale:her face was white with fear
(of a plant) having white flowers or pale-coloured fruit.
(of a tree) having light-coloured bark.
(of wine) made from white grapes, or dark grapes with the skins removed, and having a yellowish colour.
British (of coffee or tea) served with milk or cream.
(of food such as bread or rice) light in colour as a result of a refining process.
(of glass) transparent; colourless.

2 (also White) belonging to or denoting a human group having light-coloured skin (chiefly used of peoples of European extraction):a white farming community
relating to white people:white Australian culture
South African, historical reserved by law for those classified as white.

3 historical counter-revolutionary or reactionary. Contrasted with red (sense 2 of the adjective).

noun

1 [mass noun] white colour or pigment:garnet-red flowers flecked with white
white clothes or material:he was dressed from head to foot in white
(whites) white clothes, especially as worn for playing cricket or tennis, as naval uniform, or in the context of washing:wash whites separately to avoid them being dulled
white wine:a bottle of house white
(White) the player of the white pieces in chess or draughts.
[count noun] a white thing, in particular the white ball (the cue ball) in snooker or billiards.

2 the visible pale part of the eyeball around the iris.

3 the outer part (white when cooked) which surrounds the yolk of an egg; the albumen.

4 (also White) a member of a light-skinned people, especially one of European extraction.

5 [with modifier] a white or cream butterfly which has dark veins or spots on the wings and can be a serious crop pest.
Pieris and other genera, family Pieridae. See also cabbage white

verb
[with object] archaic

paint or turn (something) white:your passion hath whited your face

Phrases

whited sepulchre
literary a hypocrite.
[with biblical allusion to Matt 23:27]
white man's burden
the task, believed by white colonizers to be incumbent upon them, of imposing Western civilization on the black inhabitants of European colonies.
[from Rudyard Kipling's The White Man's Burden (1899)]
whiter than white
extremely white: the detergent that washes whiter than white
morally beyond reproach: they expect standards of behaviour whiter than white

Phrasal Verbs

white out
(of vision) become impaired by exposure to sudden bright light.
(of a person) lose colour vision as a prelude to losing consciousness.
white something out

1obliterate a mistake with white correction fluid.

2impair someone’s vision with a sudden bright light.

Derivatives

whitely
adverb
whiteness
noun
whitish
adjective

Origin:

late Old English hwīt, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch wit and German weiss, also to wheat

The term white has been used to refer to the skin colour of Europeans or people of European extraction since the early 17th century. Unlike other labels for skin colour such as red or yellow, white has not been generally used in a derogatory way. In modern contexts there is a growing tendency to prefer to use terms which relate to geographical origin rather than skin colour: hence the current preference in the US for African American rather than black and European rather than white. (OED online)



Also, Kazimir Malevich http://www.moma.org/collection/objec...bject_id=80385

Oh that one will have amsey and Flossie responding with a delighted , I'm sure ...

However I did refer, of course, to the 'colour' and in none of your definitions does it claim that "white" is "black" ... even on an accompanying blog.

By all means continue your extensive searching ...

[Julien Sorel]

However I did refer, of course, to the 'colour' and in none of your definitions does it claim that "white" is "black" ... even on an accompanying blog.

By all means continue your extensive searching ...

Is the 'colour' something different from the colour? It wasn't an extensive search. I just looked it up at the OED online. Which took 5 - 10 seconds which ... counting took about 45 seconds less than this has taken.

Why would anyone want to claim anything about words? You do say the most bizarre things. (Do you like the Malevich?)