Gay marriage thread

[Julien Sorel]

Forget it, Flossie. Find another cause. The Catholic Church isn't going to change its stance however many Cardinal O'Briens and plain John Smiths fail to live up to its teaching.

That's exactly why it infuriates its enemies and strongly attracts others who yearn for moral consistency and stability.

You may love it or hate it but it 'ain't' about to change or suddenly disappear altogether as some might wish.

Sorry ...

That sounds very like the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Attracted those who yearned for moral consistency and stability, disagreement with anything the leadership said was deviance, and any incidental faults of individual members of the leadership where unfortunate but ... incidental. I had some amazing conversations with old British Soviet-Communists in the late 70s / 80s. The party was the only interpreter of Marxism, there were no choices: you either followed the line or had no place in the 'movement'.

Of course that only lasted 70 odd years, so the Catholic Church definitely has the advantage there. On the other hand the number in Western Europe and the USA who have left the Catholic Church over the past decade or so seems quite striking: so perhaps this is the beginning of a certain geographical endgame, at least?

[MrGongGong]

That's exactly why it infuriates its enemies and strongly attracts others who yearn for moral consistency and stability.
:

Which is more or less the opposite of what it's members (in more than one sense of the word ) seem to do.
Since when has the church REALLY been morally "consistent" or "stable" ?
and the usual "get out of jail card" of "oooo but humans are weak and god is perfect" nonsense really doesn't wash any more i'm afraid ......... unless of course you are (like the woman interviewed on the TV the other week after the cardinal fessed up a bit ) are just sheep following the idiot shepherds off a cliff

[Thropplenoggin]

& I suspect that most bisexuals aren't that methodical.

(I believe that some animals do change gender, but that's still not alternating sexuality)

Interesting point. Where does the Church stand on homosexual animals? What the Dickens was God thinking when He created this lot? And will they also suffer eternal damnation for their "aberrant behaviour" which He, um, supposedly created?

Suffer the little scarab beetle?! The red ant?! The dolphin?!

From bison to barn owls, salmon to seagulls, a list of animals displaying homosexual behaviour.

[Flosshilde]

Animals (the non-human ones) don't have souls (any fule no that), so it doesn't matter what they do

[Flosshilde]

a list of animals displaying homosexual behaviour.

Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality ...

So we're just being exuberant?

(Which reminds me - time to take the dog out)

[Thropplenoggin]

Animals (the non-human ones) don't have souls (any fule no that), so it doesn't matter what they do

Yes, but who then is responsible for their behaviour if not Him? And why would He have created them thus?

[MrGongGong]

(Which reminds me - time to take the dog out)

I hope that's not a euphemism ?

[scottycelt]

That sounds very like the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.

It (the Catholic Church) is certainly very much more like the old Communist Party of the Soviet Union in authoritative terms than, say, the Tory, Labour or Liberal Parties, Julien. That is absolutely correct! As I keep saying, the Church is NOT a democratic institution where the majority decide what morality will be taught.. Some just seem incapable of getting their heads around that, though obviously you are not one of them!

Of course that only lasted 70 odd years, so the Catholic Church definitely has the advantage there. On the other hand the number in Western Europe and the USA who have left the Catholic Church over the past decade or so seems quite striking: so perhaps this is the beginning of a certain geographical endgame, at least?

Doubt we are anywhere near an 'endgame' but obviously it could result in vastly reduced numbers. However, the Church is growing strongly in other parts of the world.

I remember that 50 years ago some were predicting that China would become the world's leading superpower. Others predicted that, sometime in the future, African missionaries would re-convert Europe back to Christianity.

At the time I thought both highly unlikely. I don't any longer.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes, but who then is responsible for their behaviour if not Him? And why would He have created them thus?

Maybe that's the part of God's message that Paul forgot or omitted - were it not for His creation of homosexual species the world would be overpopulated?

I jest of course - for one thing I have (thus far, as far as one knows) succeeded in not further populating the world with little consumer/polluters. I think it was Margaret Mead said that the ancient Chinese recognised a certain percentage of their population remaining non-offspring-producing, in accordance with natural laws of self-delimitation commensurate with an ecosystem's carrying capacity, as to be welcomed, rather than for the "celibate" (this being before artificial birth control) being ostracised marginalised members of society.

Just a hypothesis, but might not homophobia - like childless women in Victorian and pre-Victorian times considered to be not fulfilling life's role for them - "just" (ahem) be a last vestige of a prejudice born of mistaken views about human nature perrpetrated by specific religions?

[Serial_Apologist]

It (the Catholic Church) is certainly very much more like the old Communist Party of the Soviet Union in authoritative terms than, say, the Tory, Labour or Liberal Parties, Julien. That is absolutely correct! As I keep saying, the Church is NOT a democratic institution where the majority decide what morality will be taught..

My knowledge of religious history is shaky, but could this be one of the reasons for the Protestant insistence on Bibilical truth?

I remember Ernest Mandel telling us how, when visiting the main library in Moscow, and asking to see original volumes of Marx and Engels, the attendant expressed astonishment at his request, saying, no one ever bothered reading Marx or Engels in the Soviet Union.

[Richard Barrett]

The Catholic Church isn't going to change its stance

In 1600 the Catholic Church burned the monk Giordano Bruno at the stake, principally for his conviction that there are other worlds besides the earth. It abandoned this particular "stance" when it became ambarrassingly clear that the facts were overwhelmingly against it. In 2013 the Church still claims that homosexuality is "contrary to the natural law", despite some of its leading members being gay. At some point this "natural law" will be accepted by the Church as containing homosexuality just as it does the existence of other planets. The Church may seem to have the qualities of "moral consistency and stability" you mention, but that's only because the changes that happen tend to occur with such cruel slowness that in any one person's lifetime they might seem not to happen at all.

[scottycelt]

In 1600 the Catholic Church burned the monk Giordano Bruno at the stake, principally for his conviction that there are other worlds besides the earth. It abandoned this particular "stance" when it became ambarrassingly clear that the facts were overwhelmingly against it. In 2013 the Church still claims that homosexuality is "contrary to the natural law", despite some of its leading members being gay. At some point this "natural law" will be accepted by the Church as containing homosexuality just as it does the existence of other planets. The Church may seem to have the qualities of "moral consistency and stability" you mention, but that's only because the changes that happen tend to occur with such cruel slowness that in any one person's lifetime they might seem not to happen at all.

Whilst not wishing to defend in any way some of the undeniably cruel practices of the centuries-old Inquisitions I would point out it was the secular state authorities who actually did the burning, In those days in Europe the State and Church were closely linked. Of course we know that some very bad things were done in the name of the Church in past centuries and that has been widely acknowledged by Church officials. However, critics of the Church always revert back to the Middle-Ages and before for such examples. That was a long, long, long time ago. We are now in the 21st Century.

The Catholic Church won't change it's stance on homosexual practice (firmly based on Scripture) any more than it will change that regarding heterosexual practice outside marriage (firmly based on Scripture). I wonder what odds the secular bookies would give on either altering? Maybe worth a quid though that might be far better spent on the National Lottery.

Alas, neither of us will be around in the next 500 years to discover who's right ... or maybe that's just as well for one of us!

[Flosshilde]

Whilst not wishing to defend in any way some of the undeniably cruel practices of the centuries-old Inquisitions I would point out it was the secular state authorities who actually did the burning, In those days in Europe the State and Church were closely linked. Of course we know that some very bad things were done in the name of the Church in past centuries and that has been widely acknowledged by Church officials. However, critics of the Church always revert back to the Middle-Ages and before for such examples. That was a long, long, long time ago. We are now in the 21st Century.

I'm trying to get my head around the idea that somebody - even scotty - could write the above with a straight face.

[Flosshilde]

An example of a 'very bad thing' the church (not the state) did -

since most Cathar parfait (male) or parfaites (female) refused to recant and embrace orthodox Catholic doctrine they were burnt to death as a matter of course. And this was specifically as a result of their religious beliefs as judged heretical by the Dominican Inquisition - not due to revolt against the temporal order.

Of course, the state helped - The latter [the temporal order] resulted in thousands more being executed as at the siege of Béziers in 1209 - 7000 in total amounting to the entire population. Arnaud Amoury, the Cistercian abbot-commander wrote to the Pope:

"Today your Holiness, twenty thousand citizens were put to the sword, regardless of rank, age, or sex." (it's not clear if the Cistercian abbot-commander was exercising temporal or spiritual power)

Perhaps scotty might let us know if the church has apologised or otherwise accepted that it was at fault?

[MrGongGong]

The Catholic Church won't change it's stance on homosexual practice (firmly based on Scripture) :

So I guess the Lobster is off the menu as well then ?
and Pork and so on

The churches have always played "pick-n-mix" with the Bible to suit whatever they want to do.

We are now in the 21st Century.

that's the funniest thing you have written for ages Scotty
some of us ARE the catholic church certainly isn't