Gay marriage thread

[Flosshilde]

He could tempt me to convert

[Ferretfancy]

Ferret, is that the right spelling ?

(venturing into Julian & Sandy territory)


(Actually, if I do pick up a M A I L on the tube (or bus or train) I usually quickly drop it again & wash my hands)

Naughty Francis !

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

He could tempt me to convert

Me, too.


And I don't mean "to Catholicism"!

[amateur51]

Alan Draper has accused the Church leadership, of being “unwilling” to expose supposedly celibate priests who were leading “double lives” in the 1980s and 1990s. Mr Draper, a lecturer in ethics from Dundee University, was brought in to advise Scottish bishops on abuse allegations but was removed after a disagreement.

He has disclosed that bishops were aware of 20 separate cases in the Church between 1985 and 1995 but he alleges that they were “reluctant” to take matters further and rejected his call for independent experts to be brought in. He is now calling for files relating to Catholic Church in Scotland to be handed over to judge led inquiry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9918880/Scottish-priests-out-of-control-sexually-says-former-abuse-adviser.html

[ahinton]

Alan Draper has accused the Church leadership, of being “unwilling” to expose supposedly celibate priests who were leading “double lives” in the 1980s and 1990s. Mr Draper, a lecturer in ethics from Dundee University, was brought in to advise Scottish bishops on abuse allegations but was removed after a disagreement.

He has disclosed that bishops were aware of 20 separate cases in the Church between 1985 and 1995 but he alleges that they were “reluctant” to take matters further and rejected his call for independent experts to be brought in. He is now calling for files relating to Catholic Church in Scotland to be handed over to judge led inquiry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...e-adviser.html

...and you didn't read that in (here sometimes) the much-maligned Guardian, did you?!...

[Serial_Apologist]

...and you didn't read that in (here sometimes) the much-maligned Guardian, did you?!...

Ams?? Convert himself over his own goal post???

[Flosshilde]

Me, too.


And I don't mean "to Catholicism"!

Ferney!

[scottycelt]

Alan Draper has accused the Church leadership, of being “unwilling” to expose supposedly celibate priests who were leading “double lives” in the 1980s and 1990s. Mr Draper, a lecturer in ethics from Dundee University, was brought in to advise Scottish bishops on abuse allegations but was removed after a disagreement.

He has disclosed that bishops were aware of 20 separate cases in the Church between 1985 and 1995 but he alleges that they were “reluctant” to take matters further and rejected his call for independent experts to be brought in. He is now calling for files relating to Catholic Church in Scotland to be handed over to judge led inquiry.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/reli...e-adviser.html

Here is some balancing information for those of a rather more thoughtful and considered mind who can see through the media hype. It was particularly bizarre that the main and misleading hype on this particular subject came from the BBC!

It was reported last night that the Scottish Church has reported ALL abuse allegations to the police since 1999. There were 20 cases of alleged abuse by priests between 1985 and 1995. Some of these were reported to the police, others were removed to different parishes. The remainder were left presumably because the Church authorities felt there was insufficient reason to go further. That wouldn't happen now and hasn't since the end of last century. EVERY case is now reported to the police

I recently saw a programme about the child murderer Ronald Castree who was finally convicted (after 32 years) of the murder of little girl, Lesley Molseed, in 1975. Many will remember the horrible injustice of another wholly innocent man serving many years in prison, after being wrongly convicted of this vile crime.

Only a year after the murder Castree indecently assaulted a nine-year old girl. He was ... wait for it ... fined £25 at Rochdale Magistrates Court!

Shortly afterwards he was convicted of a similar assault on a young boy and was fined £50.

It was a policeman who was involved in the arrest of Castree who related this information and it was clear he simply couldn't understand those pitiful penalties. Even allowing for inflation these seem to us now laughably (If that's the right word) and absurdly inadequate.

Even before he was caught it was apparently known he had a 'predilection' for young children and was simply advised 'to see a doctor'. Such men were considered by society to be 'sad' rather than 'bad'. That is the simple truth, and that was precisely the society I remember in those days and to which I referred in earlier posts.

Thankfully, things are very different now and we all (not just Catholic bishops) know better ... or certainly should.

[amateur51]

Here is some balancing information for those of a rather more thoughtful and considered mind who can see through the media hype. It was particularly bizarre that the main and misleading hype on this particular subject came from the BBC!

It was reported last night that the Scottish Church has reported ALL abuse allegations to the police since 1999. There were 20 cases of alleged abuse by priests between 1985 and 1995. Some of these were reported to the police, others were removed to different parishes. The remainder were left presumably because the Church authorities felt there was insufficient reason to go further. That wouldn't happen now and hasn't since the end of last century. EVERY case is now reported to the police

I recently saw a programme about the child murderer Ronald Castree who was finally convicted (after 32 years) of the murder of little girl, Lesley Molseed, in 1975. Many will remember the horrible injustice of another wholly innocent man serving many years in prison, after being wrongly convicted of this vile crime.

Only a year after the murder Castree indecently assaulted a nine-year old girl. He was ... wait for it ... fined £25 at Rochdale Magistrates Court!

Shortly afterwards he was convicted of a similar assault on a young boy and was fined £50.

It was a policeman who was involved in the arrest of Castree who related this information and it was clear he simply couldn't understand those pitiful penalties. Even allowing for inflation these seem to us now laughably (If that's the right word) and absurdly inadequate.

Even before he was caught it was apparently known he had a 'predilection' for young children and was simply advised 'to see a doctor'. Such men were considered by society to be 'sad' rather than 'bad'. That is the simple truth, and that was precisely the society I remember in those days and to which I referred in earlier posts.

Thankfully, things are very different now and we all (not just Catholic bishops) know better ... or certainly should.

Are you saying therefore that the Telegraph has got this wrong, scotty?

And do you have a reference for the story to which you have referred please?

[amateur51]

Are you saying therefore that the Telegraph has got this wrong, scotty?

And do you have a reference for the story to which you have referred please?

I've found this ...

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/18135

which contains the following:

"The Catholic Church in Scotland was not offering spokespeople for comment earlier in the evening (8 March 2013).

It said that Mr Draper had been replaced by people with "greater competence" and added in its statement of response: "The Catholic Church has had nationally agreed guidelines on the protection of children and vulnerable adults since 1999.

"In this regard the Church was two years ahead of the Nolan Commission in England and Wales, which reported in 2001.

"All allegations are notified to the police. The Church recognises that the statutory authorities are the responsible bodies for investigation.

"All necessary steps are taken to remove anyone in danger from situations of risk."

Well pardon me, but this flies completely in the face of these 20 new allegations and rather like the Metropolitan Police, I would not trust the Catholic Church in Scotland to follow through with its high-minded statement.

[scottycelt]

Well pardon me, but this flies completely in the face of these 20 new allegations and rather like the Metropolitan Police, I would not trust the Catholic Church in Scotland to follow through with its high-minded statement.

What 20 'NEW' allegations, amsey ... ?

As far as I can see, they refer to allegations lodged between 1985-1995, unless you have any info to the contrary ?

[amateur51]

What 20 'NEW' allegations, amsey ... ?

As far as I can see, they refer to allegations lodged between 1985-1995, unless you have any info to the contrary ?

The ones you refer to as "It was reported last night that the Scottish Church has reported ALL abuse allegations to the police since 1999. There were 20 cases of alleged abuse by priests between 1985 and 1995. Some of these were reported to the police, others were removed to different parishes. The remainder were left presumably because the Church authorities felt there was insufficient reason to go further. That wouldn't happen now and hasn't since the end of last century. EVERY case is now reported to the police

And of course there's the case of Cardinal O'Brien about which The Tablet writes:

"Cardinal Keith O'Brien was summoned to Rome as early as October 2012 to answer charges of sexual impropriety. It was previously thought that allegations of misconduct had not emerged until February 23, when a story was published in the Observer describing unwanted sexual advances allegedly made by the cardinal against three serving priests and a then-seminarian in the 1980s.

However, The Tablet can report that after a priest lodged an allegation with the Congregation for Bishops, Cardinal O'Brien was asked to travel to Rome to answer the accusation.

The disclosure of the earlier complaint about Cardinal O'Brien's sexual conduct also casts a new light on the acceptance of his resignation last November.

Pope Benedict XVI, in anticipation of the cardinal's 75th birthday on March 17 2013, accepted his resignation nunc pro tunc, meaning "now, for later". However, once further allegations were made public, he accepted the cardinal's resignation with immediate effect on 25 February."

I read this to mean that the Pope knew about O'Brien in October last year but because his retirement was coming up he dicdided to let him off nunc pro tunc. No referral to the Scottish police, no referral to any secular police, no punishment except now of course we read that O'Brien is expected to live "like a hermit" and will be expected never to return to Scotland.

[scottycelt]

Are you saying therefore that the Telegraph has got this wrong, scotty?

And do you have a reference for the story to which you have referred please?

No, I'm not, I referred merely (in my 'ironic' manner) to media-hype and I'm impressed to see you now stoutly defending the Mail & Telegraph (no longer Torygraph, I see)!

I've just checked ... a reference to the £25 fine is on Wiki though I can't find any to the £50 second fine mentioned by the senior policeman involved in the case. It doesn't sound particularly remarkable following the initial fine though, does it?

I'm slightly bewildered at your sudden and uncharacteristic reluctance to go Googling for any sort of information on any subject ... simply insert 'castree' in the search box ... go on, be bold, amsey!

[amateur51]

No, I'm not, I referred merely (in my 'ironic' manner) to media-hype and I'm impressed to see you now stoutly defending the Mail & Telegraph (no longer Torygraph, I see)!

I've just checked ... a reference to the £25 fine is on Wiki though I can't find any to the £50 second fine mentioned by the senior policeman involved in the case. It doesn't sound particularly remarkable following the initial fine though, does it?

I'm slightly bewildered at your sudden and uncharacteristic reluctance to go Googling for any sort of information on any subject ... simply insert 'castree' in the search box ... go on, be bold, amsey!

I remember the appalling miscarriage of justice that befell Stefan Kiszko very well, scotty but I can't see why you keep referring to it

[Flosshilde]

Because Scotty flounders around for any flimsy argument - 'my church, right or wrong' - except that in Scotty's eyes it's never wrong.