Gay marriage thread

[Beef Oven]

Yes, & I learned about the continental shelf.

There was a land connection between England and France until 30,000 years ago, and what is now the North Sea was dry land - Doggerland - connecting the east coast of England with the Netherlands until about 6 - 7,000 years ago.

So yes, the land mass now called the UK is part of Europe. It's also part of Europe culturally, and has been for a good many years.

Why live in the real world when you can come up with Jabberwocky like this!!!?

Port Stanley is in England too?

[ahinton]

Amazing innit!? I'm sure your fellow-traveller geo-leftypoliticos can arrange some counselling or similar Blairite support to get you through the trauma of the real-world

The only thing that seems remotely "amazing" here (apart from your lazily obsessive use of those silly symbols) is your commendation of assistance with living in a real world" of which your own grasp is so self-evidently lacking. I realise that you're not responding to me here, but aside from uncertainty as to what if anything might be meant by a "fellow-traveller geo-leftypolitico", I am neither travelling anywhere right now nor of the political left, "geo-" or otherwise.

[ahinton]

Why live in the real world when you can come up with Jabberwocky like this!!!?

So it's all wrong, then and you have proof positive that shows it to be so? Please provide this and ensure that no attempt is made to conceal the fact that UK is "also part of Europe culturally and has been for a good many years"; the fact that Britain needed to be catapulted into the European mid-20th century by the Manchester School, William Glock et al is no indicator of such total historical cultural separation as you appear to want to assume, from your wilful head-in-sand position, to have been the case for centuries.

Port Stanley is in England too?

Did anyone suggest that it is? Your evident need even to ask such a question might well be taken to suggest that, if anyone needs to return to school for some geography and history lessons, it is you.

[Mr Pee]

Yes, & I learned about the continental shelf.

There was a land connection between England and France until 30,000 years ago, and what is now the North Sea was dry land - Doggerland - connecting the east coast of England with the Netherlands until about 6 - 7,000 years ago.

So yes, the land mass now called the UK is part of Europe. It's also part of Europe culturally, and has been for a good many years.

Well, if you want to go down the historical route, we were once part of a supercontinent called Avalonia, which eventually formed parts of the UK and the USA.

So perhaps we're really a part of America?

[Pabmusic]

Well, if you want to go down the historical route, we were once part of a supercontinent called Avalonia, which eventually formed parts of the UK and the USA.

So perhaps we're really a part of America?

The clear difference is that the parts of Laurasia split up, due to plate tectonics (Avolania was just part of it). But we have not split from Europe; water has inundated the low-lying lands.

[scottycelt]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21663605

A frank and honest assessment by the interim appointment at Edinburgh. Refreshingly devoid of some of waffle we got from Murphy-O'Connor recently. I agree with those who say that O'Brien is the worst crisis to hit the Scottish Catholic Church since the Reformation. Its sheer scale of mind-boggling clerical deceit and hypocrisy at the highest level makes it that damaging.

Of course , the Church will easily survive and bounce back. It always has done but this will take some time and, in the meantime, the Church will be widely mocked. It cannot really complain about that. The Church is constantly mocked anyway. Furthermore, the mockery has not been without clear justification in recent times.

The first step will be the appointment of a strong Pope who starts to clean up the mess which clearly destroyed his predecessor. In truth, for all the silly media-hype God's Rottweiller turned out in the end to be more like Paddy's Poodle. His resignation was an admission he couldn't cope with the scandals surrounding him, To his credit, he has removed himself to clear the way for someone more suitable for the task. It may have been a radical move but it is now plain it was an essential one.

IMV, what the Church really needs now is the human equivalent of a border-collie to get the wayward clerical sheep back into some sort of common order.

One would hope that the huge majority of cardinals gathering in Rome are now well aware of that ...at least one would hope.

[MrGongGong]

Whether one believes that one can only be IN a place by being physically connected to it or not matters little really and it's a very dodgy premise for those living in Indonesia (and many other places) ....... is Burgh Island in Devon ? well, yes, no, yes , no
what is a definite fact (even though the contemporary oracle Fry hasn't mentioned it ) is that we ARE part of Europe , politically, culturally and geographically and long may it continue (Westmalle)

now back under the bridge

[MrGongGong]

The first step will be the appointment of a strong Pope who starts to clean up the mess which clearly destroyed his predecessor. :

Surely what they need to do is to recognise that human beings far from being "sinful" creatures have emotional needs that aren't met by denying a vital part of ones essence ? Get over the guilt thing which (from what I remember ) has little to do with Christianity and has caused so much damage in the world.

Sadly I think there's little chance of the things you wish for

[Deckerd]

If any good comes out of this Scottish debacle it will be that the RC church, from the top down, cease and desist their insistence on telling adults which other adults they may fuck and under what circumstances. It never was any of their business. If they stick to pastoral responsibilities and stop dropping themselves in the ordure every time yet another priest admits celibacy isn't all it's cracked up to be, everyone will be better off.

[Julien Sorel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21663605
in the meantime, the Church will be widely mocked. It cannot really complain about that. The Church is constantly mocked anyway. Furthermore, the mockery has not been without clear justification in recent times.

In the recent past and continuing present a number of organisations have been caught doing much the same sort of thing: turning a blind eye, covering their traces, dealing with it internally (which invariably means a mix of blind eye turning and trace covering), and practicing the opposite of what they preach. The Catholic Church is, because it is, on the largest scale. There's the BBC, claims about the LibDems, and while most of the world might not care, the Socialist Workers Party. Invariably (well, not invariably: the brass neck of the SWP's leadership - not all its members, which is why the issue won't go away - is brassier than anyone else's) the line goes from ... we're really sorry, lessons will be learned to ... of course, it will play into the hands of our enemies. And lo! The victimisers become the victims.

BBC: it's a campaign by people who want to scrap the license fee. LibDems: Eastleigh by-election, dirty tricks campaign. SWP: look! it's in The Daily Mail. It's a bourgeois attempt to destroy the worker's movement blah blah. Catholic Church: we will be mocked (with a hint of a parallel with the mocking of Christ?)

Because I don't share the hostility towards religious belief and religious practice of many non-believers or agnostics I find the inevitable move towards the Catholic Church feeling sorry for itself depressing. Of course I understand the impulse to close ranks and care for one another (well, I do, of course or not). But surely now is the time to realise that the harm that's been done wasn't incidental, wasn't human fallibility, but a structural failure in belief and of human decency. The mentality that produced the Magdalene Laundries, that led to adolescents in Holland in a Catholic institution being castrated for showing 'homosexual tendencies', that led to the abuse is still there: not so vividly, perhaps, but in the continued depiction of a natural manifestation of human sexuality as aberrant and sinful, in the continued refusal to accept that a woman's body is her concern, and in the ludicrous insistence on a dogma concerning birth control which clearly - clearly - will mean more Africans contracting HIV and dying of Aids.

You talk about Archbishop Tartaglia's frankness and honesty. Here's Archbishop Tartaglia, in another context:

"If what I have heard is true about the relationship between physical and mental health of gay men, if it is true, then society has been very quiet about it.

"Recently in Scotland there was a gay Catholic MP who died at the age of 44 or so and nobody said anything and why his body should just shut down at that age, obviously he could have had a disease which would have killed anyone, but you seem to hear so many stories about this kind of thing.

"But society won't address it." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-18980379

"The archbishop knew David Cairns, met him regularly at events in Inverclyde, and got on well with him, and was personally involved in his funeral arrangements. He is sorry for any hurt which has resulted, there was certainly no offence or judgement intended in his words."

Frankness and honesty?

[ahinton]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21663605

A frank and honest assessment by the interim appointment at Edinburgh. Refreshingly devoid of some of waffle we got from Murphy-O'Connor recently. I agree with those who say that O'Brien is the worst crisis to hit the Scottish Catholic Church since the Reformation. Its sheer scale of mind-boggling clerical deceit and hypocrisy at the highest level makes it that damaging.

Of course , the Church will easily survive and bounce back. It always has done but this will take some time and, in the meantime, the Church will be widely mocked. It cannot really complain about that. The Church is constantly mocked anyway. Furthermore, the mockery has not been without clear justification in recent times.

The first step will be the appointment of a strong Pope who starts to clean up the mess which clearly destroyed his predecessor. In truth, for all the silly media-hype God's Rottweiller turned out in the end to be more like Paddy's Poodle. His resignation was an admission he couldn't cope with the scandals surrounding him, To his credit, he has removed himself to clear the way for someone more suitable for the task. It may have been a radical move but it is now plain it was an essential one.

IMV, what the Church really needs now is the human equivalent of a border-collie to get the wayward clerical sheep back into some sort of common order.

One would hope that the huge majority of cardinals gathering in Rome are now well aware of that ...at least one would hope.

Broadly speaking, I cannot but agree with what you write here. I do not, however, fully share your evident confidence that the Church as it has been understood for generations will "easily survive and bounce back" and I believe that a widespread reaction to recent events and the likely discoveries that may emerge from the kind of deep and thoroughgoing inquiry that it so desperately needs is more likely to be shock than mock, more dismay than ridicule.

We'll all have to wait and see (sorry!) who the next incumbent will be and whether he (for it will be a he) does have not only the strength and determination to rout this deplorably established "tradition" but also the kinetic energy and persuasive powers to ensure that he carries with him all senior figures within the Church in so doing; I rather fear that your border-collie and sheep analogy barely fits the bill here, as it's far worse and far more deep-seated than a mere matter of "wayward clerical sheep" and my concern is that, if all that the Church promises to undertake is an internal inquiry, the risk that far too little will get done far too late will be all too real. In fact, I somehow suspect that the only way in which this aspect of the reparations might stand a chance of being overcome is if criminal charges are brought, because the will at least ensure that events be brought into the public domain where they belong rather than remaining concealed behind the grille of a confession-box.

[ahinton]

If any good comes out of this Scottish debacle it will be that the RC church, from the top down, cease and desist their insistence on telling adults which other adults they may fuck and under what circumstances. It never was any of their business. If they stick to pastoral responsibilities and stop dropping themselves in the ordure every time yet another priest admits celibacy isn't all it's cracked up to be, everyone will be better off.

Indeed so!

[Flosshilde]

Why live in the real world when you can come up with Jabberwocky like this!!!?

Port Stanley is in England too?

I don't think that BO & Pee live in England - they're obviously in de Nile.

[ahinton]

Surely what they need to do is to recognise that human beings far from being "sinful" creatures have emotional needs that aren't met by denying a vital part of ones essence ? Get over the guilt thing which (from what I remember ) has little to do with Christianity and has caused so much damage in the world.

That's absolutely correct; achieving this, however, would come to be seen, correctly, as representing a fundamental shift in Catholic culture and, sadly, like yourself, I see scant evidence that there is the will and desire for such a shift within the Church, not least because the promotion of the "guilt thing" is a cornerstone of the kind of predatory power and fear-mongering within the Church (and not only the Catholic Church either) one of the more unseemly manifestations of which is sexual abuse.

[ahinton]

I don't think that BO & Pee live in England - they're obviously in de Nile.

!!! By the way, you almost wrote BO Peep; it wouldn't have improved matters significantly if you had, however...