Gay marriage thread

[scottycelt]

Not in the least. God didn't create the world in six days and rest on the seventh. It's untrue as well as hate-provoking to claim that any form of sexuality other than heterosexual marriage is illicit, and God didn't create Eve out of one of Adam's ribs. That's why no school should teach any of the above. Because they are untrue. If a school ran geography classes insisting that the earth is flat and the sun and all the other planets revolve around the earth it would be teaching something incorrect. Not something that's to do with a view of the world.

Massive fail, I'm afraid scottycelt. .

Sounds truly horrendous, I fear, Julien Sorel ...

But surely if all schools provided the state-required basis for a general education that is all that really matters?

In my very strict Jesuit school I doubt we had 60 mins RE per week, and, even then, we had some great fun mocking 'Moonface' that lovely, gentle priest who used to take our classes. In my rather less strict State Catholic school I can hardly remember any at all, it was so way down the pecking order.

Unlike you, I'm not at all sure how the world was created but I very much doubt it is any more true to claim (without any evidence whatsoever) that there is no God and that 'gay marriages' have really anything to do with 'equality'.

As far as I'm concerned there can be atheist schools that teach whatever they like and religious schools too when it comes to the great mysteries of life, as long as the kids get a proper general education in core and chosen specialist subjects. The kids will later make up their own minds.

I thought that was what freedom and equality was all about ... ?

Yup, looks like a massive scottycelt fail, right enough ...

[Serial_Apologist]

The Spanish Inquisition was a bit before my time but, during my own lifetime, I've never met a single Catholic who would have supported it.

I'm surprised MrGG has not burst in upon this debate to remind us it's all about context.

If I were a Catholic at the time of the Inquisition, or a Protestant "keeping my counsel" in the period under Cromwell, I no doubt would have succumbed to bad faith and i.e. gone along with it all. The Stanley Milgram experiments on obedience in the early 50s in America imply the need to instill spiritual kinds of backbone far stronger than those to be found in general among adherents of the main great religions. Whatever it is about the hardwiring of belonging needs, "fitting in", (the Son of Man hath nowhere to lay his head), Original Sin appears to play little part in it: in Adam and Eve's time they didn't wear uniforms...

[amateur51]

My OPINIONS are FACTS, amsey ... these may be either true or false (or somewhere in-between) but are undoubtedly FACTS.

Ah a man after the heart of Mr Thomas Gradgrind, eh scotty?

[Julien Sorel]

Unlike you, I'm not at all sure how the world was created but I very much doubt it is any more true to claim (without any evidence whatsoever) that there is no God and that 'gay marriages' have really anything to do with 'equality'.

You know perfectly well the world wasn't created in six days and God rested on the seventh. You know that in the same way that everyone else knows that, unless they are determined to believe or pretend they believe nonsense - because of the geological evidence that it wasn't. It would be daft to read Genesis literally now, because it clearly isn't a literally accurate account of anything. No serious theologian would disagree, I'd suggest. Cranks are a different matter. It's wrong to say schools can teach what they like, because they can't teach nonsense. If what you call an atheist school taught its pupils that 10 + 10 = 100 then they would be teaching them something that wasn't correct. None of this has anything to do with "the great mysteries of life."

I would, to clarify, object to a school which taught its pupils that there is no God. Making your mind up later in life is fine - the basis for that is education not indoctrination.

I've never said there is no God.

Nor, indeed, did I say that same sex marriage was about equality. I just don't see why same sex couples shouldn't be able to marry in the same way as anyone else who chooses a secular wedding. Or why different sex couples can't commit to one another through a civil partnership.

[amateur51]

A very interesting thread. To bad it is clouded with religiosity. But I am guessing that scottycelt would have supported the Spanish Inquisition as a faith based initiative. Enough said let's agree that all people have a right to live their lives. We should be more concerned about child abuse by religious institutions than Gay Marriage.

[Mr Pee]

We should be more concerned about child abuse by religious institutions than Gay Marriage.

Ah, there we go.

And perhaps we should also be more concerned about horsemeat in Lasagne.....or the dumbing down of Radio 3......or whether The Godfather Part 2 is a better film than Part 1.....

This thread concerns gay "marriage". If you want to start a seperate one about alleged abuse in religious institutions, go ahead.

[Flosshilde]

This thread concerns gay "marriage". If you want to start a seperate one about alleged abuse in religious institutions, go ahead.

'Alleged'?! I don't think there's any 'alleged' about it.

Black Swan's comment is perfectly reasonable given a Pope who fulminates against gay marriage (& gay anything, for that matter) but seems perfectly content to sweep child abuse by his priests under the carpet.

[amateur51]

This thread concerns gay "marriage". If you want to start a seperate one about alleged abuse in religious institutions, go ahead.

Nice try Mr Pee but the OP refers to Gay marriage not Gay "marriage", you revisionist scamp, you

[Pabmusic]

The Spanish Inquisition was a bit before my time but, during my own lifetime, I've never met a single Catholic who would have supported it...

The Inquisition was not only a Spanish thing. It was based in the Vatican and was responsible for (among other things) trying Galileo. In 1542 it was renamed Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition. Since 1985 it has been the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Carinal Ratzinger of recent Papal fame was its head at the time.

[scottycelt]

You know perfectly well the world wasn't created in six days and God rested on the seventh. .

On the contrary I confess my knowledge of how the world was created is next to nil. However, I was never taught that everything in Genesis is to be taken literally, were you? Presumably God is a bit above worldly concepts like 'days', anyway.

You seem to have this vision of evil "creationists" drumming the Book of Genesis into school kids, 09.00-16.00, Mon-Fri. If indeed this is the case I'm entirely on your side! Fortunately, I don't believe this really happens, certainly in the UK ...

I've never said there is no God. .

And I never said you did ...

My point was that a teacher saying 'there is no God' to a class (and there must be some who do) is just as guilty of preaching 'nonsense' as the literal Genesis freak. Many Christians are also Evolutionists, and see no contradiction or problem in squaring the two. I certainly don't.

However, if other believers wish their kids to be taught the literal 'Six Days' version, why not? It's easy for kids to understand. My parents told me that Santa Claus existed but I've recently come around to the view that they may have been mistaken. That's the way of things. Everyone is entitled to a belief or opinion, and most of us grow up and form our own views (probably just as nonsensical).

[MrGongGong]

My point was that a teacher saying 'there is no God' to a class (and there must be some who do) is just as guilty of preaching 'nonsense' as the literal Genesis freak. .

hummm

So what if a teacher stands up and tells the class that "The Wombles aren't real"
or
"Rupert Bear is a work of fiction " ??

"God" obviously "exists" as a construct and invention of people.....

One of the MP's in the debate about equal marriage was going on about the needs to protect teachers who don't believe in it, by the same token should we protect those who believe in the power of the Jedi knights ? or in the innate superiority of white people ?

[scottycelt]

The Inquisition was not only a Spanish thing. It was based in the Vatican and was responsible for (among other things) trying Galileo. In 1542 it was renamed Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition. Since 1985 it has been the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Carinal Ratzinger of recent Papal fame was its head at the time.

Centuries ago the Protestant Queen of England, 'Good Queen Bess' imprisoned and then finally chopped the head off her cousin the Catholic Mary Queen of Scots apparently because her existence was simply considered to be a bit of a nuisance. That was the way things seemed to work in royal (and other) circles in those days.

However most of us have the intelligence to work out that the current Queen Elizabeth II (of England) bears little responsibility for this and other dastardly royal events in times of yore!

[Pabmusic]

...However, if other believers wish their kids to be taught the literal 'Six Days' version, why not? It's easy for kids to understand. My parents told me that Santa Claus existed but I've recently come around to the view that they may have been mistaken. That's the way of things. Everyone is entitled to a belief or opinion, and most of us grow up and form our own views (probably just as nonsensical).

It may be easy for kids to understand, but it's very unlikely to contain any truth, is it? (God creating light on day 1 and the sun on day 4, for instance comes nowhere near the truth.) You admit that you don't believe it either. The trouble with those who believe it is precisely that - they do believe it, so it's unlikely that they will encourage a child to think for itself and (eventually) abandon the creation story as if it were Santa Claus.

And why teach just the Christian/Jewish creation story? There are hundreds to choose from, and I think it's a good thing for schools to teach them as important cultural myths. Perhaps then people might understand that their own brand isn't unique.

[Pabmusic]

Centuries ago the Protestant Queen of England, 'Good Queen Bess' imprisoned and then finally chopped the head off her cousin the Catholic Mary Queen of Scots apparently because her existence was simply considered to be a bit of a nuisance. That was the way things seemed to work in royal (and other) circles in those days.

However most of us have the intelligence to work out that the current Queen Elizabeth II (of England) bears little responsibility for this and other dastardly royal events in times of yore!

Indeed, Scotty. Thank goodness.

[Edit] Although we ought to bear in mind the behaviour of the Church of Rome during the 16-or-so years leading up to Mary's execution (for involvement in the Babington plot to kill Elizabeth - not quite 'because her existence was simply considered to be a bit of a nuisance'). After Pius V had excommunicated Elizabeth in 1570, there was a wave of Catholic plots to overthrow her, culminating in Gregory XIII's letter to Philip II of Spain, in which he said (in Latin of course):

'Since that guilty woman [Elizabeth] … is the cause of so much injury to the Catholic faith… There is no doubt that whosoever sends her out of the world with the pious intention of doing God service, not only does not sin but gains merit, especially having regard to the sentence pronounced against her by Pius V of holy memory. And so, if those English gentlemen decide actually to undertake so glorious a work, your lordship can assure them that they do not commit any sin'.

Executing Mary was not (in the words of 1066 And All That) A Good Thing, but one does have a little sympathy for Elizabeth.

[scottycelt]

It may be easy for kids to understand, but it's very unlikely to contain any truth, is it? (God creating light on day 1 and the sun on day 4, for instance comes nowhere near the truth.) You admit that you don't believe it either. The trouble with those who believe it is precisely that - they do believe it, so it's unlikely that they will encourage a child to think for itself and (eventually) abandon the creation story as if it were Santa Claus.

And why teach just the Christian/Jewish creation story? There are hundreds to choose from, and I think it's a good thing for schools to teach them as important cultural myths. Perhaps then people might understand that their own brand isn't unique.

Yes, that's your view and that's just fine, Pab!

However, until some bright spark actually discovers the whole truth about the birth of the universe everyone is on pretty shaky ground here, aren't they? I find it no more 'nonsensical' to teach kids the 'Six Days' than a 'Big Bang' coming from ingredients that magically appeared all on their own! So we all have a bit of a learning-curve in the matter, and that's the one truth on which we can all agree. Christianity does not contain all of the answers (it's a 'faith' after all) and neither does Science! The two can work hand-in-hand in the discovery of Truth. The idea that Science and Religion are automatically incompatible is also nonsense. The Vatican itself has quite a few scientific and other "experts" in its employment.

However, let's not return to old, inconclusive battles ... what I do know for certain is that 'Gay Marriage' has absolutely nothing to do with 'Equality'!