Welfare &c.

[Mandryka]

As my father used to say, "what do you expect from a pig but a grunt" ahinton

To elaborate upon the 'grunt' - personally, I don't think the financial return you get from submitting so many personal details about yourself and your circumstances for the state to make use of in whatever way it deems appropriate, is worthwhile. Others of my acquaintance feel the same. And that's why we plan ahead and make sure we have enough in the bank to live on, should times get rough. I believe this is called 'taking responsibility for yourself', something that is frowned on by the likes of you.

[aeolium]

There might be two sides to every coin (you've obviously never seen a Klein bottle !) but
"two anecdotes don't = data"

The other side of this particular coin might be the nearly 40% of disabled people who fail ATOS' fit-for-work test when applying for Employment Support Allowance yet succeed on appeal. Hence the rather sardonic question to the PM by a Labour MP at this week's PMQs asking whether he could confirm that it was true that Richard III had been deemed fit to work by ATOS' examiners.

[amateur51]

The other side of this particular coin might be the nearly 40% of disabled people who fail ATOS' fit-for-work test when applying for Employment Support Allowance yet succeed on appeal. Hence the rather sardonic question to the PM by a Labour MP at this week's PMQs asking whether he could confirm that it was true that Richard III had been deemed fit to work by ATOS' examiners.

[ahinton]

Rather dispiriting but not altogether unexpected to see the usual culprits clambering up their hill to their perceived 'moral' high ground over this and jumping down Mandrycka's throat.

We can all speak from personal experience. I will give two examples known to me that support Mandryka's statement.

One local family, five children, no-one disabled, both parents physically capable of work and yet neither have worked (through choice) for the last twenty years. Somehow they have managed to wing the system and claim benefit for all this time. That is simply wrong.

Second family, single mother, eight children. When she's had a few in the pub, she refers to them as Inc(ome) 1, Inc(ome) 2. Again, that's abusing the system and taking money away from more deserving families.

Two sides to every coin.

Really? Not quite, I fear! "Two sides to every coin" implies that the sides are of equal size, which is where what passes for your attempt at an argument here falls down. Don't take my word for it; consult DWP's own figures, which may not be 100% accurate - how could they be? - but are nevertheless a reasonably credible guide in terms of the extent of benefit fraud / cheating and losses sustained as a sole and direct consequence of its own administrative errors as a proportion of the whole system - and it is vanishingly small in proportional terms, even though the total amounts in pounds sterling are hardly small as such to you and me.

[ahinton]

The other side of this particular coin might be the nearly 40% of disabled people who fail ATOS' fit-for-work test when applying for Employment Support Allowance yet succeed on appeal. Hence the rather sardonic question to the PM by a Labour MP at this week's PMQs asking whether he could confirm that it was true that Richard III had been deemed fit to work by ATOS' examiners.

Indeed - and the irony is not lost on me that ATOS is a French outfit, whereas the French themselves are generally thought to favour as short as possible a working week!...

[amateur51]

Really? Not quite, I fear! "Two sides to every coin" implies that the sides are of equal size, which is where what passes for your attempt at an argument here falls down. Don't take my word for it; consult DWP's own figures, which may not be 100% accurate - how could they be? - but are nevertheless a reasonably credible guide in terms of the extent of benefit fraud / cheating and losses sustained as a sole and direct consequence of its own administrative errors as a proportion of the whole system - and it is vanishingly small in proportional terms, even though the total amounts in pounds sterling are hardly small as such to you and me.

Good points, ahinton

An interesting & illuminating piece ...

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/deborah-padfield/real-cost-of-benefit-fraud-in-britain

However, there is evidence that disabled people are being encouraged to describe themselves as self-employed by agencies paid by DWP to get them into work because the claimants would get more money - and of course the agencies are being paid by results.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ouch/2013/02/more_claims_that_the_work_prog.html

Madness!

[Flosshilde]

We can all speak from personal experience. I will give two examples known to me that support Mandryka's statement.

One local family, five children, no-one disabled, both parents physically capable of work and yet neither have worked (through choice) for the last twenty years. Somehow they have managed to wing the system and claim benefit for all this time. That is simply wrong.

Second family, single mother, eight children. When she's had a few in the pub, she refers to them as Inc(ome) 1, Inc(ome) 2. Again, that's abusing the system and taking money away from more deserving families.

Two sides to every coin.

How are they known to you? By sight? By reputation? By personal knowledge derived from close contact, officially or personally?

I suspect that it's the first two, from the way you refer to them.

[ahinton]

However, there is evidence that disabled people are being encouraged to describe themselves as self-employed by agencies paid by DWP to get them into work because the claimants would get more money - and of course the agencies are being paid by results.

Ah, yes indeed - I'd forgotten to mention that! Thanks for posting these links.

In addition to the very small-scale fraud and cheating element and administrative error factor, there is also the matter of those entitled to claim state benefits who fail or omit to do so or do not claim as much as they're entitled to claim. As a matter of fact, despite all the noise about benefit fraudsters / cheats and tax evaders, it is, I believe, a generally recognised fact that if all these people immediately ceased to break the benefit and tax laws in these ways but at the same time everyone entitled to claim state benefits were to do so in full and everyone entitled to money back from the taxman managed to obtain it, HMRC/DWP's finances would be in a vastly more parlous state than they are now.

[amateur51]

MPs have criticised the test being used to see whether people claiming disability benefits are fit to work.The Public Accounts Committee said the Work Capability Assessment had resulted in too many wrong decisions which were overturned on appeal.

Its chair Margaret Hodge accused the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) of being "unduly complacent" and of hurting the "most vulnerable"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21376915

Stand by for the sadly usual 'monstering' of Margaret Hodge

[handsomefortune]

go go go margaret hodge and the public accounts committee, she's been speaking in the media quite a bit recently.... thankfully. though i think 'hurting', if anything, is skirting around the increasing stats of suicide by people trying to comply with atos and dwp requirements.

arguably, appeals are only necessary due to atos assessors being poorly equipped to judge peoples' circumstances initially. how much time, money, and human lives will this vile system waste, before some positive changes are made? i can't help wondering where the rest of the opposition party are on this urgent need for reform, especially its leader. but at least the public accounts committee are beginning to speak up.

[eighthobstruction]

go go go margaret hodge and the public accounts committee, she's been speaking in the media quite a bit recently.... thankfully. though i think 'hurting', if anything, is skirting around the increasing stats of suicide by people trying to comply with atos and dwp requirements.

arguably, appeals are only necessary due to atos assessors being poorly equipped to judge peoples' circumstances initially. how much time, money, and human lives will this vile system waste, before some positive changes are made? i can't help wondering where the rest of the opposition party are on this urgent need for reform, especially its leader. but at least the public accounts committee are beginning to speak up.

Well they cannot say much as it was Labours Purnell (?) who engaged Atos and started the Atos fiasco....¬¬*^¬/*¬¬!!

[teamsaint]

I wish I could believe that hodge had sincere motives, and wasn't just in it for herself.

[eighthobstruction]

why do you say that ts??.....

[teamsaint]

8O, you don't really want me to respond to that do you? It's just a little Friday night fun and games, right?!

BTW, I am doing some tiling ATM (10 minute break) so my mood is....well...changeable at best!!

[eighthobstruction]