Richard the Third

[vinteuil]

But to get back to the very serious question of the appropriate burial rite for Richard.

I find there are precedents:


...In 1984 a proper funeral service according to the Use of Sarum was given to the bodies
of the crew of several hundred sailors from the English Tudor warship Mary
Rose, which had sunk in the Solent...back in 1545, after the point when King
Henry VIII had broken with the Pope but before the appearance of new
burial rites in the first English Prayer Book of 1549. There was much
discussion of what to do after the sailors were raised from the deep in 1982,
and they were finally given solemn burial in 1984 with both Anglican and
Roman Catholic clergy participating in the service at Portsmouth Cathedral
according to the old Sarum rites of Requiem that they would have expected
in 1545. The ordinary of the Mass was in Latin with the lessons, bidding
prayer, Lord’s Prayer, and committal in English, and the music was of that
era, by John Taverner, Christopher Tye, and Thomas Tallis.


.

... thanks for that, Jean : I hope something similarly sensitive can be devised for R III.

Perhaps Board Members can come up with some good ideas for music appropriate for a 1485 Requiem Mass?

[jean]

No-one's yet answered my question above about Robert Fayrfax, and whether was already composing in time for Richard's coronation. If he was, he'd be there in time for his death

There are no English settings of the requiem masses AFAIK, which might mean that Sarum use did not have many texts in addition to the normal Ordinary of the mass that seemed to require polyphonic treatment. Or it might just mean that they've all been destroyed.

[mangerton]

... thanks for that, Jean : I hope something similarly sensitive can be devised for R III.

Perhaps Board Members can come up with some good ideas for music appropriate for a 1485 Requiem Mass?

Yes, that was an interesting post from jean. The composers she mentions are of course after R III's time. I can't think of any British composers of that era. I believe that Ockeghem wrote a setting of the Requiem. Perhaps that could be used.

[vinteuil]

There are no English settings of the requiem masses AFAIK...

Perhaps not a Mass, but isn't there anything by Dunstable or Power that could be used?

Perhaps we could be friendly to our European colleagues and call in some help from the Continent?
There must be some good and appropriate stuff by Dufay - Obrecht - Ockeghem - Busnois - Josquin - Brumel - Compere - Isaac ...

What a glorious period of church music!

[jean]

I think Dunstaple is a bit early, and though he spent a lot of time (and was very influential) in France, I'm not sure there was much traffic the other way - by the early Tudor period there certainly wasn't, as English music entered the glorious backwater we know from the Eton Choirbook.

There are Requiems by Okeghem, Dufay, Pierre de la Rue and other Flemish composers, but they might not fit the Sarum text, which I am determined we shall have (if only I could find out what it was!)

[secret squirrel]

Or even your DNA.

Anyway, the current Royals aren't related.

Erm... I thought HMQ and Prince Phillip both has Queen Victoria as a Great-Great Grandmother; if they were race horses, they wouldn't be allowed to breed, I've heard it said!

Yes, of course I know what you meant!

[BBMmk2]

Or even your DNA.

Anyway, the current Royals aren't related.

i am!! Although more with John of Gaunt, as Cali has mentioned! Yikes!

[secret squirrel]

Back to the burial rites, I have one sincere question borne wholly out of ignorance, so be nice in reply:

"Presumably the Mary Rose sailors were not 'committed to the deep' (no, not their work ethic!) when they died, whereas RIII would have had a 'proper burial' undertaken by the monks at the time. So can one be subject to two (or more) burials, or just 're-interred' and if the latter, then surely all this Sarum talk - while very interesting and proper it may be on the one hand - is out of place?"

Just asking...!

[Barbirollians]

This Canadian carpenter chap being directly descended from Edward IV and Richard III's sister would seem to have a much better claim to the throne than Liz.

[secret squirrel]

BBM, if you can get yourself back to anyone on here (www.fabpedigree.com) you can most usually get back to Adam or the Norse gods even...

A jolly good bit of fun, if nothing else - jut take it with a truckload of rock salt!

[secret squirrel]

but his is only through the female line (mDNA), I think, so no, not under the rules of premogeniture...

[BBMmk2]

BBM, if you can get yourself back to anyone on here (www.fabpedigree.com) you can most usually get back to Adam or the Norse gods even...

A jolly good bit of fun, if nothing else - jut take it with a truckload of rock salt!

My wife did a most exhausting research into my father's side of the family, and thus this was how she came across our relationship to John of Gaunt.

[secret squirrel]

I have to say that I too found a fabpedigree member on one of my tree branches: it has since gone exponential, cousin...!!

[Barbirollians]

but his is only through the female line (mDNA), I think, so no, not under the rules of premogeniture...

Surely , that simply means that anyone who could be found to have been descended through the male line of Richard's sister would have a better claim but he still seems to have a better claim than the Hanoverians - whose line of course is from a female line through the Electress Sophia .

[vinteuil]

Back to the burial rites, I have one sincere question borne wholly out of ignorance, so be nice in reply:

"Presumably the Mary Rose sailors were not 'committed to the deep' (no, not their work ethic!) when they died, whereas RIII would have had a 'proper burial' undertaken by the monks at the time. So can one be subject to two (or more) burials, or just 're-interred' and if the latter, then surely all this Sarum talk - while very interesting and proper it may be on the one hand - is out of place?"

Just asking...!

... an interesting question.

I would have thought that - unlike baptism, which one can only have once - there would not be any theological objections to any number of Requiem Masses being celebrated in memory of a dead person, so even assuming the monks gave him a decent burial we can always do it all over again.

But I defer to those more conversant with matters liturgical...