Richard the Third

[Stephen Whitaker]

I thought it was G&S ?

Gilbert was something of a radical you know.

In a song WSG wrote for Strephon, the half-fairy half-mortal hero of Iolanthe who enters Parliament as a Liberal Conservative and introduces a bill opening the peerage to competitive examination, he castigates his fellow MPs for not legislating on the social ills at the root of crime and not realising how easily they themselves might have been criminals or drunkards had they had a rather less privileged upbringing:

Take a wretched thief
Through the city sneaking,
Pocket handkerchief
Ever, ever seeking:
What is he but I
Robbed of all my chances –
Picking pockets by
Force of circumstances?
I might be as bad –
As unlucky, rather –
If I'd only had
Fagin for a father!

This song received almost universally adverse reviews from critics who complained that it held up the action and was out of keeping in a comic opera.

"The libretto of Iolanthe has been utilised by its author as the vehicle for conveying to society at large a feeling of protest on behalf of the indigent, and a scathing satire upon the hereditary moiety of our legislature. Advocacy and denunciation of this sort are all very well in melodrama, where telling points may always be made about the unmerited wrongs of the poor and the reprehensible uselessness of the aristocracy. But they jar upon the ear and taste alike when brought to bear upon us through the medium of a song sung by half a fairy in a professedly comic opera."

Reads just like Mandryka doesn't it?

[Alain Maréchal]

I'd be quite interested in learning about the precise nature of Richard's claim to the throne in June 1483, i.e. how it stacked up against other competing claims.

It seems to me that among the least important requirements to claim the throne of England are legal entitlement, a valid claim, or being of English descent (whatever that is). What seems to matter most is grabbing the crown, and hanging on to it. Unlike many European monarchies where bloodlines are endlessly disputed (when I last thought about it there were three claimants to the throne of France) the crown went with popular consent (or at what could be promoted as consent). Just give some thought to how many English monarchs have an undisputed title - very few, I'd say.

I will lower the tone slightly by suggesting that he didn't choose his first place of burial, and reburial in Leicester is perhaps heaping just too much indignity on him.

[BBMmk2]

How is it that threads like these on these boards tend to degenrate into manner of either a slanging match or mismatched banter?

[Mr Pee]

I love it when serial certain thread-diverters come over all holier than thou

As an apatheist and a republican this news is marginally interesting to me but all it seems to solve is that Richard III did not have a withered arm. By all means re-bury him but where he was found please and with only the minimum of fuss

The real news is the use of DNA recovery

I won't be rising to the bait, Amsy.

I'm not sure what an apatheist is, but whether one is a Republican, Royalist, or Jedi, this is a remarkable historical discovery and surely of more than marginal interest to anybody with an enquiring mind on that basis alone. It certainly seems to have caught the imagination of many people, a large number of whom are quite probably Republican. I don't see why that would make the slightest difference. This is historical, not political.

As to the re-burial, it is custom that any discovered remains, whether Royal or Pauper, should be re-interred in the nearest consecrated ground, which in this case is Leicester Cathedral. And I hope that it will be carried out with all necessary fuss, given the historic nature of the occasion.

[vinteuil]

... our withers are unwrung

wha'eva!

I am grateful to maître Ami for his twenty-first century translation of my Sheik al-Sbir quote.

Tho' the vernacular in W12 tends to "whatevs"

[Alain Maréchal]

As to the re-burial, it is custom that any discovered remains, whether Royal or Pauper, should be re-interred in the nearest consecrated ground:

You may be correct, but could you cite precedents for this custom please.

[amateur51]

I won't be rising to the bait, Amsy.

I'm not sure what an apatheist is, but whether one is a Republican, Royalist, or Jedi, this is a remarkable historical discovery and surely of more than marginal interest to anybody with an enquiring mind on that basis alone. It certainly seems to have caught the imagination of many people, a large number of whom are quite probably Republican. I don't see why that would make the slightest difference. This is historical, not political.

No bait offered MrPee - it was what we call in these parts my opinion

Interesting how you can asset that history is not political MrPee

[Bryn]

No bait offered MrPee - it was what we call in these parts my opinion

Interesting how you can asset that history is not political MrPee

Ah yes, now which famous 19th Century duo opined that "the history of all hitherto existing societies is the history of class struggle"?

[BBMmk2]

You may be correct, but could you cite precedents for this custom please.

Wonder if it will be Westminster Abbey

[amateur51]

Ah yes, now which famous 19th Century duo opined that "the history of all hitherto existing societies is the history of class struggle"?

That'd be Nellie Wallace & Dan Leno, I'm certain of it

[Nick Armstrong]

How is it that threads like these on these boards tend to degenrate into manner of either a slanging match or mismatched banter?

Boring, ain't it BBM. Enough to have one reaching for the Spitfire...

[aeolium]

It seems to me that among the least important requirements to claim the throne of England are legal entitlement, a valid claim, or being of English descent (whatever that is). What seems to matter most is grabbing the crown, and hanging on to it. Unlike many European monarchies where bloodlines are endlessly disputed (when I last thought about it there were three claimants to the throne of France) the crown went with popular consent (or at what could be promoted as consent). Just give some thought to how many English monarchs have an undisputed title - very few, I'd say.

That may be, Alain Maréchal. I was merely interested in the theoretical basis of his claim compared with that of others, that's all.

[MrGongGong]

Boring, ain't it BBM. Enough to have one reaching for the Spitfire...

Buried on a Burmese airfield ?

the real answer is that this IS a pub and we have missed last orders being called ............ hic

[EdgeleyRob]

How is it that threads like these on these boards tend to degenrate into manner of either a slanging match or mismatched banter?

Just stick to music and footy like me BBM !

[french frank]

I see I have to hand: History of King Richard III by Sir T. More, and H. Walpole's Historic Doubts on the Life and Reign of King Richard III. Ideal reading for a winter's evening. I don't think I've ever read either - though I have read Daughter of Time.