New bells at Notre Dame

[MrGongGong]

No, Mr GG, changeringing, contrary to what sometimes is expounded, is not music..

Interesting
I do understand how it all works
but
why is it NOT regarded as "music"
as a sonic art it consists of all the characteristics that one would normally associate with "music"
pattern, melody, rhythm, organisation, social context, intention etc etc

surely "Tintinabulists" are either
a: The disciples of Part ?
or
b: The followers of Hergé ?

[ardcarp]

your Kent Treble Surprise Bob Maximus is wonderfully titled but not actually possible.

Oh well, it sounded convincing!

McGG
Bell-ringers do not learn their art as a musician learns his/hers. But I imagine you would have a fairly liberal interpretation of what constitutes 'music'. If the extremes of the avant-garde, aleatoric stuff, birdsong even, can count as 'music' then surely the highly systematised methods of bell-ringing can too.

I think some composer (whose name I sadly can't remember) wrote a piece including some change-ringing. Can anyone help?

[Cornet IV]

surely "Tintinabulists" are either
a: The disciples of Part ?
or
b: The followers of Hergé ?

You see? My ploy works!

Look to!

I'm not sure if we are thinking of the same thing Ardcarp but not so long ago there was a chap who engaged two or three different towers whose bells were pitched in related keys so that by means of a walkie-talkie, he could "conduct" a composition expanded by having bells tuned to, e.g., B-flat, E-flat & A-flat. Since each bell was employed only for its individual note and not as part of a ring, melodic sequences (and, in theory, simple harmonies) could be produced. At least, I think that is how it worked. I suppose this arrangement might approximate to MrGG's definition of music but, frankly, in my judgment the only bigger waste of time would be my continuing to promote the interests of the English G-compass organ.

This is all!

[ardcarp]

Treble's going
She's gone....

...off topic. Again. If organists and choirmembers are not all believers in the faith they support, they are at least, by practical need, present during services, Ringers, on the other hand, can do their stuff and disappear off to the pub (lucky ducks). Some vicars have tried to insist that tower members should all attend services, usually with the result that the bells fall silent...until the vicar relents. Thinking back to the days when I rang (I was still at school) I found the fraternity of ringers very strong and there were many enjoyable days of 'grabs', pubs and general socialising. Just occasionally we would go into the church itself and sing the bellringers' hymn. (Yes, it's in AMR if I remember correctly).

[MrGongGong]

Oh well, it sounded convincing!

McGG
Bell-ringers do not learn their art as a musician learns his/hers. But I imagine you would have a fairly liberal interpretation of what constitutes 'music'. If the extremes of the avant-garde, aleatoric stuff, birdsong even, can count as 'music' then surely the highly systematised methods of bell-ringing can too.

I think some composer (whose name I sadly can't remember) wrote a piece including some change-ringing. Can anyone help?

That's the first time i've seen Respighi described as the "extremes of the avant-garde"

Pieces with bell ringing include Alvin Currans Maritime Rites and the one cornet describes was this Charles Hazlewood thing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01803s3

there's also this

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/5160172/Gavin-Bryars-Fusillage-comes-to-Fuseleeds09.html

and this was great as well

http://www.kinetica-artfair.com/?exhibitors/2010/p-e-a-l

There are several pieces that use change ringing structures that I have come across

which is why its interesting that such a long tradition of music is not considered as "music" by it's practitioners .......

i'm reminded of this quote from Music, Society, Education in relation to Balinese music
"We have no art, we do everything as well as we can"

[Bryn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br4nDywdwUk

[MrGongGong]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br4nDywdwUk

I'm sure there's an older piece by John White ? or someone else in the EMC compilation
as well as endless Gamelan pieces (it's wot they did in York in the 1980's .......)

[Cornet IV]

Treble's going
She's gone....

...off topic. Again. If organists and choirmembers are not all believers in the faith they support, they are at least, by practical need, present during services, Ringers, on the other hand, can do their stuff and disappear off to the pub (lucky ducks). Some vicars have tried to insist that tower members should all attend services, usually with the result that the bells fall silent...until the vicar relents. Thinking back to the days when I rang (I was still at school) I found the fraternity of ringers very strong and there were many enjoyable days of 'grabs', pubs and general socialising. Just occasionally we would go into the church itself and sing the bellringers' hymn. (Yes, it's in AMR if I remember correctly).

Yes, a different topic but one which I find personally exercising.

The ringing fraternity enjoys its Peals and Quarters, outings and tower grabs and generally treats the bells as its own, particularly in the increasing number of churches where the incumbent cannot be bothered to show his/her face from one year's end to another. As a quid pro quo, the band gives up its Sunday mornings (and often evenings) as well as Saturdays during the summer wedding season to support the church in what, basically, are acts of Christian stewardship although probably less than 10% are active believers. Inevitably, there is a certain ambivalence attached to all this but I think it fairly can be stated that nearly all ringers, regardless of personal religious stance, are aware of performing a service to the Church and very conscious of participating in and promoting an honourable tradition effectively unchanged for four centuries. I have to admit to strong feelings of guilt as we ringers tip-toe out, hoping to remain unobserved by the congregation whom we sometimes outnumber. With the seemingly relentless advance of secularism, the C of E management bent upon shooting itself in the foot at every opportunity and decline and closure of parish churches, one has to wonder for how long this happy balance might be continued. Sic transit and all that.

Ah yes - the bellringers' hymn. I'm not familiar with AMR.
This is not included in A & M (and in my judgment all exclusions therefrom are happy-clappy and to be eschewed), but "our" hymn is the one exception I allow. I marvel at the ability to get from the Rounds of "Unchanging God, who livest . . " to the Queens of "To men the power thou givest . . " with only one line in between. This requires some nifty footwork!

Stand next time, please.

[ardcarp]

I have to admit to strong feelings of guilt as we ringers tip-toe out

...organists try it sometimes (for a quick drag) and hope not to be caught out by a spasm of brevity from the usually long-winded Rev.

OK, I'm ringing down now.