Scarfe touches a raw nerve

[MrGongGong]

No 'BUTS' please that would be clear discrimination.

If you state (correctly) that 'things ARE wrong and need challenging' it is therefore logical to assume that some things are not always 'a straight banana story', surely?

Those of a PC 'inclination' don't accept anything is wrong and simply won't accept any 'challenging', that is the whole point.

However, I do very much appreciate the odd recommendation or two directing me towards the 'correct' literature ... life is one big learning curve for all we incorrect hoi-polloi, after all.

I said this

"The trouble with those who "bang on" about "PC" is that it almost always turns out to be a "straight banana" story "

so if you think that I am of a "PC 'inclination' " (i'm more of a mac chap these days though) then I guess you are a little wrong in this

Those of a PC 'inclination' don't accept anything is wrong and simply won't accept any 'challenging', that is the whole point.

evidence ???? never mind , make some up !

[eighthobstruction]

I don't know if anyone has already displayed these links....from HAARETZ (Israeli English language newspaper)

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/four-reasons-why-u-k-cartoon-of-netanyahu-isn-t-anti-semitic-in-any-way.premium-1.496880

[Lateralthinking1]

I suppose I view Israel in the round. A lot of the people lost their parents and siblings because of gassing, not that they had done anything wrong. People can vote, women get as good a deal there as here, the disabled are supported, it was the country that was represented by a transsexual at Eurovision, the elderly are supported, it is possible to wear ordinary swimwear on beaches and fashionable clothing on the streets and music isn't banned. I ask myself how balanced Londoners would be if Calais was run by the Taliban. My answer is that there would be constant panic and paranoia, no doubt accompanied by poor judgement. Britain would probably be governed by UKIP. And it wouldn't simply have sent the army into Iraq, Afgahnistan, Libya and Mali in just a decade.

[Thropplenoggin]

I don't know if anyone has already displayed these links....from HAARETZ (Israeli English language newspaper)

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...emium-1.496880

Don't worry, 8th0 - they'll be dismissed as wrong-headed, too.

[jean]

I don't know if anyone has already displayed these links....from HAARETZ (Israeli English language newspaper)
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...emium-1.496880

I wasn't able to get the full text of Anshel Pfeffer's article from that link, but it's available here:

http://www.haaretz.com/four-reasons-why-u-k-cartoon-of-netanyahu-isn-t-anti-semitic-in-any-way.premium-1.496880

And I found a response to Pfeffer's article from Martin Gardner, here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/29/is-the-sunday-times-cartoon-antisemitic?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+theguardian%2Fmedia%2Frss+%28Media%29

"...As ever, we are immediately drawn into the old "is it antisemitic, isn't it antisemitic" routine – as if anybody could ever prove what actually goes on in Gerald Scarfe's head; and as if what goes on in his head is the most important thing in all of this.

For sure, Gerald Scarfe has "a thing" about blood. It is a theme that repeats in his cartoons. For example, his Sunday Times cartoon of 26 February 2012, literally shows Syria's President Assad guzzling blood from a cup that has "children's blood" written on it. So, he has not singled out Benjamin Netanyahu for the blood treatment and he is perfectly capable of drawing a full-on blood libel should the mood take him. Neither has Scarfe singled out Netanyahu for physical disfigurement. This is how he draws people, regardless of their nationality or religion.

Unfortunately for Jews – and for satirists — antisemites and antisemitism also have "a thing" about blood; and especially about the allegation that Jews murder others (children in particular) in order to use their blood or organs for heinous purpose. It is a harsh fact that blood has long played a profoundly disturbing part in the history of antisemitism, and this has obvious consequences for Jews and antisemites today. The actual intentions of Gerald Scarfe and the Sunday Times count for very little within this broader context of history, and its contemporary emotional and racist impacts.

So, the cartoon, regardless of the wishes of Scarfe and the Sunday Times, regardless of it specifically being anti-Netahyahu rather than anti-Jew, will seriously distress many Jews and will give pleasure to many antisemites...This is, after all, how antisemitism actually works, for its victims and its proponents. For those practical reasons, this cartoon will (like the Dave Brown/Independent cartoon of Ariel Sharon eating babies) be perceived as part of the canon of contemporary antisemitic imagery, as are the many other cartoons that associate Israeli leaders with blood in hideous ways..."


To link this to the thread title: Of course there is a 'raw nerve' here. But is is not a specifically Zionist one; it's one that is liable to be exposed in everyone, Jew or non-Jew, who has any kind of awareness of centuries of antisemitic tropes.

[french frank]

People are welcome to continue the slanging match here. I should say that several posts are perfectly blameless, but they have been removed because they formed part of a particular direction of the discussion. I have tried to keep this thread on topic.

Personally, I think the origin and development of 'political correctness' is a topic well worth exploring, but not if it involves contentious silly generalisations and personal abuse of members.

[french frank]

Please start a separate thread if you want to discuss socialism, PC or similar subjects - and stick to ideas - not which particular member happens to have expressed an opinion.

[Resurrection Man]

I suppose I view Israel in the round. A lot of the people lost their parents and siblings because of gassing, not that they had done anything wrong. People can vote, women get as good a deal there as here, the disabled are supported, it was the country that was represented by a transsexual at Eurovision, the elderly are supported, it is possible to wear ordinary swimwear on beaches and fashionable clothing on the streets and music isn't banned. I ask myself how balanced Londoners would be if Calais was run by the Taliban. My answer is that there would be constant panic and paranoia, no doubt accompanied by poor judgement. Britain would probably be governed by UKIP. And it wouldn't simply have sent the army into Iraq, Afgahnistan, Libya and Mali in just a decade.

Excellent post, Lat. Slightly tongue-in-cheek but if the tabloids are to be believed then parts of East London are ruled by the Taliban

[Resurrection Man]

#

Should have said " Iran doesn't have nuclear weapons".
If you read back, you will see that Israel, according to some people, only acts in self defence. I'm not quite sure who is actually threatening Israel with nuclear weapons. Iran doesn't have them.
I mentioned about nukes, because it is a clear indication of Israel's stance on defence issues. They have at least 75 warheads, at the most conservative count. You really don't need that for self defence.

Surely Israel is in the same position as we and others were at the time of the Cold War.....deterrence.

[Resurrection Man]

Ah, the joys of anonymity. Now repost it under your real name and wait for the fanatics to come at you.....

No problem. My real name is Gerald Keep-my-neck-warm.

.....And that the leader of one of your nearest neighbouring countries openly called for you to be wiped from the map.
....

Sorry, Mr Pee, I can't support you on that statement. That was my understanding but reading and researching around a bit, there is no evidence to support that that claim was made.

[Resurrection Man]

Quite. I do, however, detect a certain crocodilian taint to the editor's lamentation. If Scarfe's cartoon is now seen to be so "inexcusable", how come none of the Sunday Times staff saw it as such on that edition of the paper's way to bed? Was nobody at the Sunday Times aware of the date? Sorry, not good enough Mr. Editor. It does not wash.

The cynical view is that the only reason Murdoch apologised was because he thought his circulation figures would suffer.

[MrGongGong]

Surely Israel is in the same position as we and others were at the time of the Cold War.....deterrence.

Not really......
But even if that was true it doesn't justify their blatant flouting of international law, stealing land etc etc
How can we complain about crazy folk in Iran wanting dangerous weapons when we ignore the ones Israel has ?

So if my neighbours children climbed over the fence and stole my parsnips it would be ok for me to buldoze their house and steal their garden after bludgeoning them all to death first ?

[Thropplenoggin]

Surely Israel is in the same position as we and others were at the time of the Cold War.....deterrence.

Surely the point is, they developed them illegally. Or does Israel get a free pass on that as well as countless other human rights abuses. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre)

[Lateralthinking1]

Oh no. Jane Asher has gone. She does great work for Parkinsons UK too, not just draw a few silly old cartoons like her hubby!

(I think the point was that she seems in as good a position as anyone to ask him whether it would be useful to think)

[Frances_iom]

I suppose I view Israel in the round. ...

that the end justifies the means is a common argument - however I'm surprised you have used it - Israel is not surrounded by Taliban - much of the blame for this interpretation of the Koran is due to Saudi money pushing their brand of extremism but the fertile ground was initally produced by the running sore of large Palestinian refugee camps whose young men can look forward to no reasonable future (and in the words of Blair's wife she understood why suicide attacks were seen as the only option) and the West's support of thieving dictators who deprived their population of the development and more importantly the education of girls which would have reduced the birthrate.