Scarfe touches a raw nerve

[eighthobstruction]

I certainly have not said Israel should not exist anywhere (has anybody else?). Although as a joke I will say Greece seems like a good place these days for several reasons, should another exodus be needed. As regards GB/UK, I think every body in that region does not even utter 'the Balfour Dec' (other than as a geographic definition point) when trying to find a solution to the present (once again one more variable too much when trying to a solution). That is long gone as a bargaining tool (50 years stale). No, what is talked about now is Palestine and Israel, they do not need analogies outside their experience. They have a reality (some a more unhealthy and restrictive reality than others) that is gridlocked....to OT, if Scarfe wants to spred around a little cartoon blood (even on memorial day) as a lubricant to aid an unlocking (for the people of TODAY) then let him without censure. Peace will always be in power of Israels hands....not the Palestinians.

[Frances_iom]

the Balfour declaration allowed the Zionists to establish some settlement as long as acceptable to others (go away + read it) - no way did the Brits set up an Israel - yes it should return to pre 6day war borders (which Israel actually started) - there was an interesting academic paper + book by an Israeli scholar pointing out that most of the immigrants (+ settlers) have little or no genetic connection to the Jewish population pre 7th century but were the descendants of the Jewish converts along the trading routes (eg along the Volga) when Judaism was a proselytizing religion - many of the 'locals' converted (probably forceably) to Islam and continued to occupy the land of their forebears.

[MrGongGong]

How about ignoring the media and finding out for yourself?

Easily done.

Come and stay with me a few nights and we'll pop out in the car in the evening and I'll drop you in these areas that you think it's the wrong postcode teenagers that are at risk.
.

I frequently travel on foot through "dangerous" places
the point is not that there aren't "dangerous places" but compared to the well documented past Whitechapel isn't full of gun toting teenage gangs .......

Oh I do have access to the media just as you do. One finds different spins on stories. Such as these about the East London Mosque. http://hurryupharry.org/2013/01/22/m...nd-homophobia/ Naturally I expect you will dismiss these as they don't fit in with your own prejudices/mindset. Two sides to every story. Sometimes three.

BTw, I don't read the Mail. Why do you automatically label people who disagree with you?

I never suggested you did read the wail
but was only showing you where there was condemnation from Moslems
which is NOT the same thing as saying that everyone is wonderful ......... it's not a question of my "mindset" more what many (but NOT all ) from the Moslem community in widely reported media actually said about this........

understand ?

[amateur51]

I frequently travel on foot through "dangerous" places
the point is not that there aren't "dangerous places" but compared to the well documented past Whitechapel isn't full of gun toting teenage gangs .......



I never suggested you did read the wail
but was only showing you where there was condemnation from Moslems
which is NOT the same thing as saying that everyone is wonderful ......... it's not a question of my "mindset" more what many (but NOT all ) from the Moslem community in widely reported media actually said about this........

understand ?

Two interesting pieces ...

from London ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/31/its-islamic-dont-panic

and Egypt ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/video/2013/jan/29/egypt-revolution-raise-video?INTCMP=SRCH

[MrGongGong]

I'm not an Islamic scholar
but it does seem to me that part of our problem is that when we hear the word "Moslem"
we have a picture of this



in our heads
and never (unless we are listening to Kershaw etc )

this



or this



Surely one of the problems (as others have also said) is our wonderful friends in Saudi Arabia ?
a good weapons destination and our governments love them .......

[Lateralthinking1]

the Balfour declaration allowed the Zionists to establish some settlement as long as acceptable to others (go away + read it) - no way did the Brits set up an Israel - yes it should return to pre 6day war borders (which Israel actually started) - there was an interesting academic paper + book by an Israeli scholar pointing out that most of the immigrants (+ settlers) have little or no genetic connection to the Jewish population pre 7th century but were the descendants of the Jewish converts along the trading routes (eg along the Volga) when Judaism was a proselytizing religion - many of the 'locals' converted (probably forceably) to Islam and continued to occupy the land of their forebears.

So, Frances, although you doubt that it is a return to a homeland in many ways, you are in favour of an ongoing smaller Israel? What is your reasoning for supporting any Israel in the future? I understand mine but I am not quite sure I understand yours.

I have read the Balfour Declaration. You are right to say that the settlement at that time needed to be acceptable to other parties but I think the phrase 'allowed the Zionists to establish some settlement' is a little disingenuous as it could imply that it was all down to them. Boundaries were to be determined by the Principal Allied Powers. That was confirmed by the Treaty of Lausanne.

As for Britain's role after WW2, the US was rightly concerned about British incompetence in managing the region, not least because the Brits were imprisoning holocaust survivors. The British Government referred the matter to the UN. It is true that the British then rejected the decision of the General Assembly that there should be separate states. It was also overruled. Yet again then it is an example of how this country always insists on others abiding by UN resolutions and picks and chooses when it suits its interests. I'd say that a combination of earlier involvement in the region, mismanagement and our UN membership implies we were the cause.

This is not at all to blame this country then for its limitations. It was faced with a very complicated situation and it had come through many gruelling years of necessary war. It is though to blame this country now and in recent years for its double standards which would be written into our constitution as a requirement if we ever dared to have a constitution in writing. Some chance!

[Lateralthinking1]

I certainly have not said Israel should not exist anywhere (has anybody else?). Although as a joke I will say Greece seems like a good place these days for several reasons, should another exodus be needed. As regards GB/UK, I think every body in that region does not even utter 'the Balfour Dec' (other than as a geographic definition point) when trying to find a solution to the present (once again one more variable too much when trying to a solution). That is long gone as a bargaining tool (50 years stale). No, what is talked about now is Palestine and Israel, they do not need analogies outside their experience. They have a reality (some a more unhealthy and restrictive reality than others) that is gridlocked....to OT, if Scarfe wants to spred around a little cartoon blood (even on memorial day) as a lubricant to aid an unlocking (for the people of TODAY) then let him without censure. Peace will always be in power of Israels hands....not the Palestinians.

Eighth, I don't object to those words hugely. A present day framework makes sense as long as we recognise that the Israeli position is partially Israeli and partially inherited from history. I don't think we can say it is all about them. Beyond that, the removal of distant historical context as far as is possible has to be two-sided to be effective. It wouldn't be right if it were to remain the unspoken basis for the political position of gut-reaction opponents in, say, London. Sadly it often is though.

I don't see Scarfe as lubricant. Arab involvement in commemorating Holocaust Day would be, particularly with Israelis alongside in a mutual acceptance that it is a symbolic time to stand against all political atrocity. On Mr GGs point, yes, but I don't see Muslims as burkas. I see thugs jumping on a religious bandwagon as they do in Northern Ireland. Some, among other things, require their wives to wear burkas. Other burkas are worn by the genuinely devout. The latter are slightly more likely to be a choice made by women.

Let's remind ourselves again - and young British Muslims would benefit enormously from greater education on this point so why don't we do it? - on how devout British and American Muslims used to look in the 1970s. The family bin Laden in happier times:

[eighthobstruction]

That's an interesting picture Lat....

[Lateralthinking1]

That's an interesting picture Lat....

I can look at the picture for ages. It is like a great painting as it asks so many questions about life. The colour is startling. It is very much in contrast with the shadowy gangs, the burkas, and the grey pallour in photos that were later issued from caves.

I am far from being a huge fan of ostentatious wealth. It is often shallow and it is rarely an answer to very much. I can understand the attraction of a faith that emphasises depth. But what I see in that picture is a certain innocence. It represents that moment people reach when wealth is fun. It is the excitement and joy at having got to a place before going any further and hence too far.

The clothes are the Temptations of Rotary Connection or something in that vein and the car is cartoony Starsky and Hutch. None of it is a Velvet Underground immersion in delinquency about which the instinctively "fundamental" might later have guilt and wish to battle. Everyone is smiling naturally too. Arguably it hints that only a rampant ego could bring it down - and/or perhaps illness.

Admittedly, people today like Baroness Warsi look, as they are, like westerners. That part hasn't changed beyond all recognition. Being a politician, though, she is at a disadvantage in terms of her ability to enable youngsters to find common identification. The same is true of others who have a dryish kind of power. The youths do not in many cases realise that many of us have these historical reference points although they might be in family photograph albums. There again, parents are symbols against which many will naturally rebel, even if rebellion requires taking to an ultra-conservatism. Womad children often head to big business!

The photo, if known, would place a lot of people on the spot. It works on so many levels in asking "which way do you want to go?", plays to the natural feeling in many that happiness is not a bad direction and cuts across the idea that things like fashion are a western vice and the alternative is a moral crusade. For all of the accessories, the people in the photo are undoubtedly Muslims.

I think your third picture is of Sufis? They themselves could be permitted to play a far more important role in education than they do as their philosophy is generally sound. Are the dervishes from a video accompanying Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan? There used to be a video clip for 'Tere Bin Nahin Lagda' in which they were featured but I can't find it now. The combined grace was truly beautiful.

[MrGongGong]

The photo, if known, would place a lot of people on the spot. .

If you are referring to the one of the young Bin Laden ? then it's very widely known
and a very familiar image
it does raise many questions .........

[Lateralthinking1]

If you are referring to the one of the young Bin Laden ? then it's very widely known
and a very familiar image
it does raise many questions .........

But bear in mind Mr GG that the photo was released to the newspapers a long time ago. Perhaps 2002. 17 year olds in Whitechapel would have been 6 or 7 at that time.

I've found that clip now. It has to be among my world music eight for DID - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZvPZu7RJZM

[MrGongGong]

I've found that clip now. It has to be among my world music eight for DID - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZvPZu7RJZM

Now what was the "multiculturalism has failed" script that I keep reading in the papers ??

I don't believe in God but I DO believe in Nusrat

(sorry for misquoting )

[Beef Oven]

Now what was the "multiculturalism has failed" script that I keep reading in the papers ??

I don't believe in God but I DO believe in Nusrat

(sorry for misquoting )

What off-message papers have you been reading?

[MrGongGong]

What off-message papers have you been reading?

.

[Beef Oven]

Fine
I guess part of my point is that it's easy to assume that what one reads in the media (any media not just the DM etc) as being accurate
many parts of London that are portrayed in the media as "dangerous" ARE dangerous IF you are a teenager from the "wrong" postcode
but not for the rest of us...... which is NOT to condone any of these despicable folk who are simply idiots looking for an excuse

[QUOTE=MrGongGong;256428]I frequently travel on foot through "dangerous" places
the point is not that there aren't "dangerous places" but compared to the well documented past Whitechapel isn't full of gun toting teenage gangs .......


You are very naive. Your liberal, middle-class conscience could get you into a lot of trouble if you wander just a few scores of meteres from the Whitechapel that you have in mind. Do it more than the occasional tourist-visit and the risk-profile goes through the roof.