Playing with trains/ HS2 & 3

[Pabmusic]

Well, Ams! Are we allowed emoticons?

[vinteuil]

Is this not to do with relativity? According to Govt. ministers, these trains are going to be so fast that they'll arrive at their destination before they leave.

(Or have I got this wrong?)

... if I remember my physics, won't those on the train also have increased their mass considerably? What will that do for the government's obesity targets?

[ahinton]

But the nearer they approach the speed of light, the more everything will slow down. So everyone will complain.

Well, complain not only rhymes with train but is surely synonymous with the subject! Any economic benefits arising from the HS2 project will stand no chance of being felt until the entire project has been up and running for several years, especially if its overall consts continue to spiral - and the whole as currently planned (the remaining as yet unplanned phases taking the line to central Scotland hasn't even been costed out and scheduled yet) is not due for completion until some time in 2032 in any case and would probably overrun in construction time and cost as these things usually do. It's also a misnomer in any case to the extent that, by the time it's all in service (if ever that were to occur) it would more accurately be described as LMS2 - i.e. Low to Medium Speed 2; there are already trains in service that exceed its proposed speeds, so in 19 years' time there will almost cetainly be more and faster ones elsewhere.

Most of Britain's train tracks are wholy unsuitable for high speed travel and having to start all over again will simply never be affordable. As things are now, however, with the project coming under increasing and increasingly vociferous criticism and opposition, it's looking less and less likely that it will ever begin and it will not surprise me to hear of its having been shunted into the sidings.

[ahinton]

... if I remember my physics, won't those on the train also have increased their mass considerably? What will that do for the government's obesity targets?

!!! What it will do, no doubt, is provide excuses for inflating the fares...

[Frances_iom]

...

Most of Britain's train tracks are wholy unsuitable for high speed travel and having to start all over again will simply never be affordable. ....

the argument seems to have morphed into never mind the speed feel the capacity - there was in distant past a very pleasant GWR route Chester - Shrewsbury- Wolverhamptom- Birmingingham-Oxford-London
as the southern part is about to be electrified could not the line as far as Shrewsbury be upgraded (or has it gone beyond reach) then switch to Crewe link and thus increased access to Liverpool + Manchester tho I suspect the bottle neck to Scotland north of Preston will remain - if the SR route ex the new Reading station upgraded then good links to areas south + west of London

[Vile Consort]

Frankly, it always was about capacity. It's just that the PR people didn't find that sexy enough so they emphasized the speed.

[amateur51]

the argument seems to have morphed into never mind the speed feel the capacity - there was in distant past a very pleasant GWR route Chester - Shrewsbury- Wolverhamptom- Birmingingham-Oxford-London
as the southern part is about to be electrified could not the line as far as Shrewsbury be upgraded (or has it gone beyond reach) then switch to Crewe link and thus increased access to Liverpool + Manchester tho I suspect the bottle neck to Scotland north of Preston will remain - if the SR route ex the new Reading station upgraded then good links to areas south + west of London

I miss the Wrexham-Marylebone line

[teamsaint]

Frankly, it always was about capacity. It's just that the PR people didn't find that sexy enough so they emphasized the speed.

Hence my question about how people really use the line.
Is it actually all hard pressed execs speeding from Manchester to the Smoke, or is the WCML use much more generally as a long distance local line?(if that makes sense).

If capacity is really an issue, why is the last train to Manchester from Euston at 10pm?
Double decker train not an option?
Improved links from the East/South Coast wherever into Brum not an option?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The Great Central line was closed in the 1960s. HS2 follows a similar route. So perhaps closure was a mistake.

[teamsaint]

on an associated subject...
it looks like some good public transport news at last.
It seems, (though many will believe it when they see it) that the Transwilts service is to be upgraded from the currently useless two trains a day, to a proper regular service.
Really excellent news, assuming all goes to plan.
Well done all concerned.
More like this elsewhere, please!!

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12745.15

[Vile Consort]

In my experience (of the ECML) it's not "execs" but (a) ordinary employees like myself being sent to meetings with suppliers and customers, (b) lots of families with children and (c) long distance commuters.

On the way south, few people get off and, on the way north. few get on. It's a means of getting from somewhere to London and back.

Why no trains after 10pm? The meeting attenders are only paid from 9 till 5 and don't want to spend any more time than necessary outside those hours on their employers' business. The families with kids don't want to be travelling late at night for obvious reasons, and the long distance commuters want to leave London as soon as possible after they finish work.

Capacity at a time when nobody wants to travel isn't capacity at all. The railway companies are already doing everything they can to push traffic away from the peak hours by making peak hour travel eye-wateringly expensive and off-peak travel ludicrously cheap but there is still more demand than they can cope with during the peak and lots of spare capacity at the ends of the day.

Double decker trains probably aren't an option because of the restricted UK loading gauge. Maximum height from rail to where the roof begins is only about 13 feet, and there is a considerable amount of equipment to be accommodated below the floor. Unless customers are prepared to enter the carriages on all fours, it is impracticable. Changing the loading gauge would mean large sections of the route being closed for years and years.

[teamsaint]

yup, no doubt you are right, VC.

good news on the Transwilts though !!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There's a growing clamour in the north of England to start HS2 from Manchester and Leeds first. It makes sense. And you can guarantee they'd get on with it a lot faster, because Londoners would never like to be left out.

[teamsaint]

this kind of scheme

http://hsnorthstart.wordpress.com/

seems to make far more sense. I'm sure i read about another similar scheme somewhere. Probably been wiped off the web like so much else !!

[DracoM]

Talking to two business people about just that yesterday. FAR more people live in the Manchester / Liverpool conurbations, plus Preston, many millions in the Leeds / NE areas than Brum. Train change facilities in Manchester are far better than the chaos that is New St Stn The North West is where much of the current big business revival has to happen. By all means route it through Brum, BUT start it from Leeds / Manchester. Totally agree. BUT they would have to do something with Leeds Stn which is frankly a real mess.