Playing with trains/ HS2 & 3

[Serial_Apologist]

Of course too many people (not everyone, however!) in the West have become overly materialistic, but that's not the fault of capitalism per se but their own; just because all manner of things might be available to many and affordable by some, one doesn't necessarily have to have them; it's abit like people doing certain things just because they can rather than for any better reason.

Inordinate pressure is exerted, day in, day out, through ads, peer-group pressure, and the non-durability of product, to enforce conformity with what capitalism dictates should be one of the main criteria driving the instilling of a sense of belonging.

You may, [claim that corruption and misaplication are endemic to capitalism (S-A)] but that doesn't make it true; if it were, capitalism would likely have collapsed many decades ago - it's hardly a new phenomenon, after all.

On the contrary, capitalism thrives through corruption in all sectors and at all levels.

This is only partly true, the real culprit being shortsightedness, without which far fewer nations would have ended up s hidebound to the oil producing ones as they are today - and those oil producing nations, had they possessed the vision to assume the lead in development of sustainable energy, could by now have done very nicely for themselves, thank you and other nations also have ended up far better off as a consequence.

The more capital is concentrated, the greater the need for firms to out-compete one another to survive in the cut-throat global marketplace ineluctably predestined, and the more strategic planning has to assume a short-term character. In the 50s and 60s Japanese industry was looked upon with envy for its bosses' ability to maintain loyal hardworking workforces and above all, to plan long-term. Yet it was that long-term planning that above all did it for Japanese industry in the 1980s.

You're absolutely correct here from "Oil producing countries" onwaards, as I suggested above, but this situation is the consequence of wholly inappropriate, socially damaging and woefully short-termist misuse of capitalism for which there can be no excuse. Like all other fossil fuels, oil is a finite resource; every time a new oil source is discovered and worked, it gradually becomes weaker, less productive and more expensive to extract from - in other words, it's unsustainble. There needs to be capital investment in oil on a vast scale while we're still so pathetically dependent upon it, but there needs to be investment in sustainable energy too - and the latter would be a constructive and socially acceptable use of capitalism; this is where the capitalists involved in that area of the market have mostly gotten it so horrendously wrong - and they've been getting it wrong, inexcusably, for decades. Did you know, for example, that despite America having one of the world's worst reputations (at least until recently) for overuse of gas-guzzling motor vehicles, Heifetz had his Renault converted to run on electricity as long as 45 years ago? - yet, even today, the electric motor vehicle is still in its relative infancy and the solar boosted second generation one barely exists outside the R&D department anywhere.;

If there were profits, short-term, to be made on more sustainable energy sourcing, money would have been put into it.

Yes, we are indeed "urged" to consume - and we must do so up to a point - but to do so disprooportionately is not something to which any of us is forced under duress. Whatever happened to the kind of free will that capitalism is supposed to value so highly? You are correct about Buddhism and Taoism in this context, of course - yet if we are indeed accepting of human nature we are also free not to allow it to be unduly influenced by others who want us to buy more and more of this and that when we don't actually need or want it. "Original sin"? What so "original" about it?!

The short answer is that the whole machinery of publicity did not exist to be applied to the moulding of personality, identity etc, in the ages when Buddhism and Taoism were instilled into Indian and Chinese cultures.

But we can't all spend as much as half of our days in such contemplation in today's world; some time, yes, but not half of one's day! How are the hospitals, schools, police forces and heaven only knows what else going to run if we all did that? How would I get time to compose? (don't answer that!). Forget the tabloids' treatment of this kind of thing which is, of course, as nonsensical and misleading as you say it is, but let's have a sense of proportion here; the kind of world in which contemplation features so highly is one in which many forms of human development are far less likely to occur and what does occur will do so vastly more slowly. If we'd all been doing as you seem to be advocating here, most Western music would not have been composed, for a variety of reasons - and much of it would not in any case be as it is!

Well one might conjecture that less hospitals, police forces and armies would be needed because of better diet and healthier mindset, and that a more inclusive society - one that took greater compassion as well as recognising and encouraging the worth of persons such as those with whom Mr GG works - would develop its members in more rounded ways. I agree that the evolution of Western music would undoubtedly be different - Minimalism appeared prematurely for a type of society that has yet to see the light of day; I've come to think that later manifestations of it (Glass, Adams etc) are a reflection of how readily simpler forms of music (that for me, and I think Elliott Carter said something similar, don't truly reflect or express the complexity of our times) can be co-opted to commercial ends.

Anyway - we've gotten rather a long way from Birmingham, have we not?!...

True - but a worthwhile diversion in my case!

[Dave2002]

I have never been to Birmingham, somehow, as they are putting a high speed link to it makes it, somehow, somewhere better to go rather than Shrewsbury or Ludlow for a day out.

anna

Yes, but it'd be a long way round for you, and you'd have to wait some while for a train. There are good things in or near Birmingham, such as Symphony Hall.

[gurnemanz]

anna

Yes, but it'd be a long way round for you, and you'd have to wait some while for a train. There are good things in or near Birmingham, such as Symphony Hall.

It's a great hall. The only time I have been there, however, was not for a classical concert but for a visit from one of my favourite American singers, Emmylou Harris, who announced to us that she was born in Birmingham [...Alabama].

[scottycelt]

Whilst even I would never be one to wax lyrical of the joys of suddenly finding oneself at New Street Rail Station, the walk from there to Symphony Hall is a most pleasant and interesting one. There are many lovely and imposing features and buildings en route. The hall itself is the finest more modern venue in the UK, imho..

The renovation and revitalisation of formerly dirty and depressing industrial city centres has been one of the most remarkable and welcome achievements in recent decades.

Credit where credit's due ... HS2 or no.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There are many lovely and imposing features and buildings en route. The hall itself is the finest more modern venue in the UK, imho..
The renovation and revitalisation of formerly dirty and depressing industrial city centres has been one of the most remarkable and welcome achievements in recent decades.

[ahinton]

Inordinate pressure is exerted, day in, day out, through ads, peer-group pressure, and the non-durability of product, to enforce conformity with what capitalism dictates should be one of the main criteria driving the instilling of a sense of belonging.

Indeed it is, but that does not of itself mean that everyone has to succumb thereto at all times - and, after all, not everyone does!

On the contrary, capitalism thrives through corruption in all sectors and at all levels.

One aspect of it does - or at least can - but this is the very aspect that needs to be weeded out. The only alternative is to dispense with capitalism altogether, which acton would seem not unakin to curing a common cold by surgical removal of the throat and sinuses but, if this is indeed what you advocate, with what would you replace it and how might you suppose that it could garner sufficient support from the public anywhere?

The more capital is concentrated, the greater the need for firms to out-compete one another to survive in the cut-throat global marketplace ineluctably predestined, and the more strategic planning has to assume a short-term character. In the 50s and 60s Japanese industry was looked upon with envy for its bosses' ability to maintain loyal hardworking workforces and above all, to plan long-term. Yet it was that long-term planning that above all did it for Japanese industry in the 1980s.

Long-term planning in and of itself isn't any kind of uniuversal panacea and I was not seeking to suggest as much; I merely accused certain myopic short-termism in the particular field of sustainably energy as a particularly glaring example of the misapplication of capitalist principles (and there are others).

If there were profits, short-term, to be made on more sustainable energy sourcing, money would have been put into it.

That's exactly what I said! You can nor more do ever more oil exploration or sustainable energy research and development without investment of capital - but which is - and would have been - the better of the two?

The short answer is that the whole machinery of publicity did not exist to be applied to the moulding of personality, identity etc, in the ages when Buddhism and Taoism were instilled into Indian and Chinese cultures.

Of course it wasn't - so it's no good trying to apply the principles of either to modern life when such machinery does exist - but machinery is man-made and doesn't have to be used expect when it is used and those who propote its use and are subjected to its use in the "moudling of personality, identity, etc. " have only themslves to blame for any adverse consequences; in the meantime, however, such use is not compulsory.

Well one might conjecture that less hospitals, police forces and armies would be needed because of better diet and healthier mindset, and that a more inclusive society - one that took greater compassion as well as recognising and encouraging the worth of persons such as those with whom Mr GG works - would develop its members in more rounded ways.

Indeed - "less", certainly, but not "none"! Better diet and healthier mindsets of themselves are no recipe for guaranteed total disposal of all disease, breaches of the law and so on - and then what about the teachers and other professional?

I agree that the evolution of Western music would undoubtedly be different - Minimalism appeared prematurely for a type of society that has yet to see the light of day; I've come to think that later manifestations of it (Glass, Adams etc) are a reflection of how readily simpler forms of music (that for me, and I think Elliott Carter said something similar, don't truly reflect or express the complexity of our times) can be co-opted to commercial ends.

That's true - and Elliott Carter, who has made no secret of his loathing of minimalist expression, is right here; he has also said that 2-in-a-bar based music dependent upon its association with walking has less importance and relevance in a age of air travel, which is correct but not the whole story, because we still do walk. What concerns him - and quite rightly - is that new means of expression in music should enhance, not replace, earlier ones; I agree with him entirely and this is nothing new. Bach incited emotional responses in ways that earlier composers didn't, but that's not to undermine those earlier composers so mach as to indicate the expansion of expression of which Bach proved himself capable. Later composers have pushed these and other boundaries farther and farther, again by no means to the detrimant of the alue of earlier music; this is inevitable, because composers are humans. But what of this simplicity? What's so simple about a Palestrina Mass, or the music of Byrd? Complexity is not an end in itself, of course and certain surface complexity of expression can risk being self-defeating, but what bothers Elliott Carter about minimalist music is its regressiveness and meanness of spirit; it bothers me, too.

[MrGongGong]

Whilst even I would never be one to wax lyrical of the joys of suddenly finding oneself at New Street Rail Station, the walk from there to Symphony Hall is a most pleasant and interesting one. There are many lovely and imposing features and buildings en route. The hall itself is the finest more modern venue in the UK, imho..

The renovation and revitalisation of formerly dirty and depressing industrial city centres has been one of the most remarkable and welcome achievements in recent decades.

Credit where credit's due ... HS2 or no.

and its a great tragedy that the Library designed by John Madin has not been listed and will be demolished
the original design of which would have had a PUBLIC space in the middle (remember that ?? ) and hanging gardens softening the concrete , sad that we are loosing so many of these buildings that had real vision when they were built well and maintained.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/9011203/John-Madin.html

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks, ahinton, for your views!

Indeed it is, but that does not of itself mean that everyone has to succumb thereto at all times - and, after all, not everyone does!;

Not at all times, but beyond merely the level of practicality, it is very hard for young people, in particular, at a crucial point in their social acculturation, to avoid stigmatisation if effectively they become refuseniks.

The only alternative is to dispense with capitalism altogether, which acton would seem not unakin to curing a common cold by surgical removal of the throat and sinuses but, if this is indeed what you advocate, with what would you replace it and how might you suppose that it could garner sufficient support from the public anywhere?;

In broad terms (since detail requires more than the inevitable generalisations which follow): grass roots mass action in workplaces to take decision making away from the rich and powerful, who have created the present mess by presiding over its exegesis, while simultaneously inordinately benefitting materially thereby. Community/workplace liaison to decide on priorities regarding meeting primary needs, creating sustainable products, developing science in the interests of feeding, clothing, housing and transporting people and goods sustainably and converting production for purposes of war to peace, and education directed to optimising knowledge and the fullest human potential for creative expression and involvement. Beyond - though of course inextricably interlinked - developing new patterns of international trade in the mutual interests of the trading countries involved, so that genuine mutualism can flow betwen nations, rather than the Third World remaining perpetually in hoc to the interests of the First.

Long-term planning in and of itself isn't any kind of uniuversal panacea and I was not seeking to suggest as much; I merely accused certain myopic short-termism in the particular field of sustainably energy as a particularly glaring example of the misapplication of capitalist principles (and there are others).

Under a system not geared to periodic crises of over and underproduction like the present one, the answer to the question of planning, long- or short-term etc, would depend on the project. Taking agriculture as an example, laws protecting the environment always change in response to the vagaries of the market, and the way in which fluctuations dictate whether or not projects can be sustained.

That's exactly what I said! You can nor more do ever more oil exploration or sustainable energy research and development without investment of capital - but which is - and would have been - the better of the two?

Sustainable energy! The point I was making was that investment in renewables has been lacking because the vested interests of the oil industry have been prioritised and always catered to.

it's no good trying to apply the principles of either to modern life when such machinery does exist - but machinery is man-made and doesn't have to be used expect when it is used and those who propote its use and are subjected to its use in the "moudling of personality, identity, etc. " have only themslves to blame for any adverse consequences; in the meantime, however, such use is not compulsory.

I'm afraid you lost me on that one! Saying that those who inaugurated, encouraged or imposed consumerism and its adverse consequences have only themselves to blame is tantamount to agreeing that they should be removed!

Indeed - "less", certainly, but not "none"! Better diet and healthier mindsets of themselves are no recipe for guaranteed total disposal of all disease, breaches of the law and so on - and then what about the teachers and other professional?

I didn't say "none"! However, if one accepts the conjunction of mind and body, one has to agree that "we are what we eat". "Mens sana in corpore sano" seems quite a good emblem for a healthy society in mind and body in a healthy biodiverse environment; gearing up for such a society would probably lessen the likelihood of crime as rational planning would reduce unemployment and the genuine alienation flowing from non-involvement and non-appreciation associated with it. Imagine the role for education in such a society!

That's true - and Elliott Carter, who has made no secret of his loathing of minimalist expression, is right here; he has also said that 2-in-a-bar based music dependent upon its association with walking has less importance and relevance in a age of air travel, which is correct but not the whole story, because we still do walk. What concerns him - and quite rightly - is that new means of expression in music should enhance, not replace, earlier ones; I agree with him entirely and this is nothing new. Bach incited emotional responses in ways that earlier composers didn't, but that's not to undermine those earlier composers so mach as to indicate the expansion of expression of which Bach proved himself capable. Later composers have pushed these and other boundaries farther and farther, again by no means to the detrimant of the alue of earlier music; this is inevitable, because composers are humans. But what of this simplicity? What's so simple about a Palestrina Mass, or the music of Byrd? Complexity is not an end in itself, of course and certain surface complexity of expression can risk being self-defeating, but what bothers Elliott Carter about minimalist music is its regressiveness and meanness of spirit; it bothers me, too.

Ah - we are in total agreement!

[Anna]

I have discovered I can in fact go to Birmingham by train, for only £14.80 return, which seems very good. Perhaps they are desperate for people to go there. However, looking at The Daily Wail this morning it says that this new HS2 will result in the demolition of 341 Listed Buildings. That cannot be right surely, that they would press ahead and destroy such heritage for the sake of shaving off a few minutes on a journey?

[teamsaint]

I have discovered I can in fact go to Birmingham by train, for only £14.80 return, which seems very good. Perhaps they are desperate for people to go there. However, looking at The Daily Wail this morning it says that this new HS2 will result in the demolition of 341 Listed Buildings. That cannot be right surely, that they would press ahead and destroy such heritage for the sake of shaving off a few minutes on a journey?

I think you will find that they would very much press ahead.

lets just imagine that they spent 30 % of the money on worthwhile transport projects, 20 % on saving listed building, and the rest on reducing the deficit, or reducing tax, or abolishing the rise in pension ages. Kind of gives you a warm glow....!!
(make up other spending plans to suit your mood !!)

[MrGongGong]

I have discovered I can in fact go to Birmingham by train, for only £14.80 return, which seems very good. Perhaps they are desperate for people to go there. However, looking at The Daily Wail this morning it says that this new HS2 will result in the demolition of 341 Listed Buildings. That cannot be right surely, that they would press ahead and destroy such heritage for the sake of shaving off a few minutes on a journey?

Even the Wail doesn't say that 341 listed buildings will be DEMOLISHED it says affected

shades of the whole "evil railways" rant in Dombey & Son methinks

[Dave2002]

Playing with trains

Groan.

Yet another announcement about high speed trains. For goodness sake - either get on with it, and build the things as soon as possible, or scrap these projects.

I wonder how long it would really take to build the lines if there was real determination to do it. Why not start in the North, and work down? It's not as if we can't already get to Birmingham and even Manchester in reasonable time. Things get slower on the stretches further up the country. That assumes that it will really be impossible to do anything in parallel, though I don't see why not. Perhaps we, in the UK, are incapable of "multi-tasking".

It took long enough to get the lines to and from France in place, and now HMG looks as though it's going for a new world record for building lines slowly.

Oh - and what happened to the essential redevelopments at Waterloo, now that Eurostar doesn't go there any more? Nothing! The requirement for the extra platforms at Waterloo to ease congestion in and out of that station seems to have stalled, and we still have congestion there. In the meantime, if we want to go to Paris or other places across the channel, it actually takes those of us starting south of the capital longer than before, as now we have to cross London. No wonder some people still prefer to fly.

Are we, in the UK, capable of planning, and running anything properly? Well - yes. Obviously the Olympics worked out much better than many of expected or hoped. Perhaps we should ask the teams involved there to plan and run the railways.

[teamsaint]

the road "improvements " for the olympics in Weymouth were extremely unpopular, and rightly so.

Anyway, HS2 is a ruinously expensive vanity project.
the money, if there actually IS money, would be far far better spent on smaller , badly needed improvements in the rail and bus networks.

The MP for central Stoke is (at last) having second thoughts, now that he realises the thing isn't going to stop anywhere near the potteries.
Well why would dave and the old etonians blow £36bn of their, sorry our hard earned money on a shiny new train system , just to get off a Stoke?
Utter madness.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I agree. It's quite absurd. They should get on with it. I expect the Tories to delay it, but let us not forget that Labour proposed a high speed line in the mid-1990s, and promptly forgot about it once in office. Their route ran from London to Birmingham, and continued to Manchester, then diagonally through the Pennines to Leeds, on to Newcastle and Edinburgh, with an extension to Glasgow. Quite an ingenious route really, but a spoof one appeared in a local newspaper, running up the east coast and over the Humber Bridge, through Whitby to Darlington and over Stainmore Pass to Carlisle, and thence to Glasgow and Aberdeen.

[Thropplenoggin]

Will this prove to be another Millennium Dome white elephant?

If they want to boost regional development, develop existing inter-regional railway lines.

And how about skipping London altogether. Newcastle-Plymouth anyone?

All this will do is boost house prices in Cheshire and Leeds, as the London commuter belt shifts ever further north.