Playing with trains/ HS2 & 3

[Dave2002]

Do we really want or need HS2? Can we afford it anyway? Have we got more important things to spend on?
Does freezing a plan now mean that we will in the end be stuck with something which is less useful than if we wait?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16436443

http://stophs2.org/

https://www.hs2.org.uk/

[aeolium]

Do we really want or need HS2? Can we afford it anyway? Have we got more important things to spend on?

No. Probably. Yes.

The new line will not reduce journey times between London and Birmingham significantly, will be very expensive requiring very high rail fares & therefore will be probably mainly used by businessmen, rich tourists, MPs and other wealthy public officials. Our transport infrastructure does urgently need additional investment, but not of this kind when many lines are congested and rail fares are so high.

Here is some interesting information about the relative spending on transport infrastructure between North and South. A fiver a head in the North-east, eh?

The recent McNulty report into the UK railways (summary here) shows that UK railways are 20% more expensive than those in Europe on average, ticket prices are 30% higher, and the UK railways are 40% less efficient. It also shows how subsidy, far from reducing since privatisation, has significantly increased. The government would be better off tackling these problems before proceeding with HS2, imo.

(Oh, and yes, I do want to go to Birmingham. Fine city and possibly the best concert hall in the country )

[french frank]

Well, it is a start in providing a national rail service comparable to that provided by other countries. But on its own it seems a paltry, unambitious thing because we've been so slow developing the infrastructure, shaking our heads over all the problems. Witness the time it took to get the small bit of high speed service between St Pancras and Ashford.

[Norfolk Born]

Like the Olympics (and, in an earlier age, Concorde) it's a vanity project. And as is usual in these cases, the costs and disadvantages will be downplayed and the possible or supposed benefits remorselessly promoted.

[Flosshilde]

Do we really want or need HS2? Can we afford it anyway? Have we got more important things to spend on?
Does freezing a plan now mean that we will in the end be stuck with something which is less useful than if we wait?

Yes and yes. Probably. Yes. Don't know what the last question means - we've fiddled around too long with railways. If the same amount of government spending was put into railways as has gone into roads we'd probably have the best railways in the world. Many people want to go to Birmingham from London, or, possibly more importantly, from Birmningham to London.

The real problem with the peoject is that it's too timid - the plans should be for a high-speed rail through to Scotland - Glasgow and Edinburgh at least, & probably on to Aberdeen - the home of GB's oild industry, with potentially many customers for the HS2. If the same timidity had been evident in the 19th century we wouldn't even have the railway system we have now.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The real problem with the peoject is that it's too timid - the plans should be for a high-speed rail through to Scotland - Glasgow and Edinburgh at least, & probably on to Aberdeen - the home of GB's oild industry, with potentially many customers for the HS2. If the same timidity had been evident in the 19th century we wouldn't even have the railway system we have now.

Exactly. London to Birmingham is pathetic, but to more distant locations, it's a must.

[aeolium]

Well, it is a start in providing a national rail service comparable to that provided by other countries. But on its own it seems a paltry, unambitious thing because we've been so slow developing the infrastructure, shaking our heads over all the problems. Witness the time it took to get the small bit of high speed service between St Pancras and Ashford.

I'm certainly a fan of the high speed routes in Europe and the Eurostar service, and I'd like to see more high speed routes in the UK. The problem is that this particular choice of route is, as you say, paltry and unambitious, and also the cost of building new rail infrastructure seems to be so much higher in the UK than elsewhere in Europe - whether that is due to the process and the fragmentation of the railways since privatisation I don't know. I would have preferred to see a new HS route built for the West Coast main line rather than the very expensive upgrade, but there were concerns even over the cost of the upgrade and there are those cost issues in building new infrastructure - as well as all the planning issues: any proposed new HS line will bring multiple local protest groups, usually supported by the local MP and the project becomes politically as well as economically difficult.

Here is a tragi-comic commentary on the UK rail fare structure, such as it is. I can't recall it being prohibitively expensive to travel on BR without advance booking.

[french frank]

Here is a tragi-comic commentary on the UK rail fare structure, such as it is. I can't recall it being prohibitively expensive to travel on BR without advance booking.

My sister-in-law, wanting to travel from Bristol to Birmingham found that the much cheaper option was to buy a return Bristol-Cheltenham and another one Cheltenham-Birmingham, just making sure that the train she caught stopped at Cheltenham up and back.

[aeolium]

My sister-in-law, wanting to travel from Bristol to Birmingham found that the much cheaper option was to buy a return Bristol-Cheltenham and another one Cheltenham-Birmingham, just making sure that the train she caught stopped at Cheltenham up and back.

Yes - that's hardly the option you'd immediately think of as the cheapest (actually, I'd have thought four singles might have been cheaper, as two singles are often cheaper than the equivalent return). I often drive to Gloucester or Cheltenham if I'm going to Birmingham for a concert as it costs so much more from my local rail station.
You've also got to know when the cheap advance tickets become available. I wanted to book a return from London to Edinburgh for my niece and started checking 3 months in advance to see if cheap tickets were available but it was around £120 each way By delaying it until just under 2 months I was able to get a ticket for around £18 each way.
I suppose someone has written a book on all the tricks to use to get affordable tickets (probably as big as the Thomas Cook Rail timetable) but you shouldn't really have to become a rail geek to travel on British trains.

[Lateralthinking1]

One of the main reasons why the Conservatives are driving forward with HS2 is that they opposed airport expansion. They felt that it would be the start of an alternative to having excessive numbers of domestic flights. Seeing that both Gatwick and Heathrow are close to capacity, something had to be done to accommodate demand. At the time they were jumping on the environment bandwagon to such an extent that they ran the risk of being seen to be anti business. Justine Greening led the way on behalf of her constituents who would have been affected by noise from a 3rd runway at Heathrow. Her career has gone from strength to strength. Teresa Villiers continues to sit uneasily in a junior role attempting to balance her interests with those of the Chilterns.

[teamsaint]

I am a huge fan of rail travel, and firmly believe we should invest in all forms of public transport.
But at this stage HS2 is a vanity project by the rich , for the rich.

The money spent HS2 could bring enormous benefits elsewhere. Example? just £3m to re open the Hythe branch line into southampton.

And just imagine how much buses could be improved with a tiny fraction of this cash.

I would love to see us with high speed rail........but this project needs to take its turn.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I would love to see us with high speed rail........but this project needs to take its turn.

Hasn't this project waited long enough, as the Japanese, French, Germans, Italians, Spanish and Chinese quietly left us in the railway dark ages? It should have been done years ago.

[Serial_Apologist]

Ironic, isn't it, that the main opponents to HS2 are Conservative constituents expressing their hostility on visual damage to their beloved locales, when one thinks that railway landscapes have provided some of our most picturesque scenery, unlike motorways.

[Flosshilde]

I assume that you mean the architectural elements, like bridges & viaducts. Now they look picturesque, but at the time I wonder if they were considered utilitarian eyesores (except for those designed by the likes of Brunel)? Unfortunately the new line, when it gets built, will be unlikely to feature anything but the most basic structures.

[teamsaint]

Hasn't this project waited long enough, as the Japanese, French, Germans, Italians, Spanish and Chinese quietly left us in the railway dark ages? It should have been done years ago.

It has. We should, as you say, have done this years ago.
But there are other , bigger priorities.
Public transport in, and to and from, london is already at a level most of the country can only dream of.

We need top quality public transport, but the money need to be spent as well as possible, and this scheme doesnt do that.