Playing with trains/ HS2 & 3

[Dave2002]

Watching Michael Portillo in the newish series about American railways, there is mention of a Trip Optimizer - a computer based system which optimises the speed and fuel on trains running along the tracks. It managed to run faster (in simulation) and use less fuel than Michael was able to manage.

Is there anything similar used in the UK or on the Continent?

[Gordon]

The quick answer is An Experienced Human Driver!!

No surprise that an amateur would not beat a system designed to be "optimum" on a set piece. In order to know what it is being asked to do a real system on a real train would need to know many details about the train eg its gross weight and composition as input parameters to a calculation. It also needs to know something about the route and terrain over which the train passes ie speed restrictions, gradients, curves which will add to rolling resistance, location and aspect of signals [in case of adverse conditions] and even wind speed and direction will have an effect. An "ideal trip" profile is then calculated and the system tries to achieve that. All the system can do is efficiently set conditions for whatever parameter is to be optimum eg fuel economy consistent with meeting the train's schedule and allocated path through the network. It could just be a kind of glorified cruise control. How long before the guardless trains proposed recently will be replaced by driverless ones as well - the Victoria line is already, and has been for a while, automatic the man just for show.

After I posted the above I found this: http://www.getransportation.com/trip-optimizer and this http://media.getransportation.com/si..._nobleed_0.pdf

both of which show what I suggest above. Almost certainly something of its kind will be in use in Europe especially of the network operator uses GE locomotives. The trick in a dense commuter network is to make sure all trains run in concert and in their time slots where time is the important issue. I doubt that Trip Optimiser can cope with the antics of passengers. Seems to me it is best suited to long haul freight which is significant in the USA.

[teamsaint]

I don't suppose the Bakerloo extension will be high speed, or get built for years, but here's an amusing article to keep us entertained in the meantime.

( Stick with it, it's worth it).

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/02/this-is-where-the-new-bakerloo-extension-stations-will-be-find-out-which-iconic-london-buildings-will-be-destroyed/

[Lat-Literal]

I don't suppose the Bakerloo extension will be high speed, or get built for years, but here's an amusing article to keep us entertained in the meantime.

( Stick with it, it's worth it).

http://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/02/thi...-be-destroyed/

That runs close to Jackie Leven's rant in my link except in this case it is new railway infrastructure rather than B and Q that would damage the supermarkets.

I studied the maps as well as reading the article and I also looked at Google maps. The reference to the route being in areas suitable for regeneration may along with much else be ironic. They are hardly choc-a-bloc with flats and houses in comparison with adjoining areas. At most, one of the two Old Kent Road stations could be helpful and then it is debatable. As anyone who has travelled overland by train to London Bridge station will know, it is so close to the New Den you could comment accurately on if a player was offside.

Ideally as the writer implies the route would be entirely different with new stations on the Walworth/Camberwell border and also Peckham but not the Rye. It is in those inner London areas where oddly buses have been the only first option since time began. As for any interchange, somewhere near Denmark Hill would be preferable. People in New Cross already have many options. Others as far as 10-20 miles south (ie here) have to travel round most of South London with semi-mobile conditions to get to King's College Hospital. What is additionally needed is a more solid connection from the Denmark Hill area to East Croydon. Given the topography, soils etc that would probably have to be overhead rail.

A weird aside:

The writer's humour which I like extends to including the ropiest looking areas of concrete and other bits of junk and presenting it as heritage. But he has inadvertently provided information on some of my family heritage. That's Faraday "Gardens". My mother used to play in Faraday Gardens in the 1930s or the 1940s while at Faraday school before it was bombed. As the sign shows they are on Portland Street where my Nan lived from the early 1970s to 1982. I am not sure that they should be lost to a ventilation chute or whatever.

This thread was originally about HS2/HS3 since when we have had the "wonder" that is the Northern Powerhouse. While better than the "let them eat cake" approach to Merseyside of Sir Geoffrey Howe in the eighties, it is only marginally so. It has been a long time since there has been such a top heavy "jobs for the strand of talking classes who don't help anyone but themselves". There are some Tory types there but it is most notable for being one of the top three countries to which the "professional" New Labour millions emigrated.

[Dave2002]

This thread was originally about HS2/HS3 since when we have had the "wonder" that is the Northern Powerhouse. While better than the "let them eat cake" approach to Merseyside of Sir Geoffrey Howe in the eighties, it is only marginally so. It has been a long time since there has been such a top heavy "jobs for the strand of talking classes who don't help anyone but themselves". There are Tory types there but it is most notable for being one of the top three countries to which the "professional" New Labour millions emigrated.

You have struck a chord, or hit a nerve here. I am in favour of a Northern Powerhouse, whatever that is. Clearly in the nineteenth century the northern parts were very important to Great Britain, and it may even have been the case that some of the wealth created was in the hands of people living in the north - rather than people living in the south, but exploiting manufacturing and other resources in northerly parts. There is some investment in northern parts, but nothing like enough, so that many people drift down to the already over crowded south east and don't return. Arguably this does also seem to go on political divides, so that recent governments are not really interested in improving the situation for those in remoter (i.e. a long way from London) parts, so that the situation perpetuates. Then politicians are amazed when "problems" like Brexit appear, as they don't seem to notice that people more than 20 miles away from the capital have lives which ought to be worth living.

i don't understand the reference to the "top three countries". Is the Northern Powerhouse a country, or Merseyside, or whatever ....?

Although it is possible that Mr Osborne was just making political sound bites, the notion of encouraging thriving communities and economies outside London is a very good one, to be encouraged. Even HS1 was supposed to do that, with development around Ashford, but I don't think that has been too successful, at least as far as setting a vibrant local community largely independent from London.

HS2 should not merely be seen as a way for people to commute from Birmingham (or Sheffield, Leeds etc.) to London, which I fear may be part of the reasoning behind it. Areas outside London need to be developing as cultural centres, not merely as inferior places for workers to live, and work in hum drum jobs, places which those elite people in the far superior SE would not wish to go to.

[Lat-Literal]

You have struck a chord, or hit a nerve here. I am in favour of a Northern Powerhouse, whatever that is. Clearly in the nineteenth century the northern parts were very important to Great Britain, and it may even have been the case that some of the wealth created was in the hands of people living in the north - rather than people living in the south, but exploiting manufacturing and other resources in northerly parts. There is some investment in northern parts, but nothing like enough, so that many people drift down to the already over crowded south east and don't return. Arguably this does also seem to go on political divides, so that recent governments are not really interested in improving the situation for those in remoter (i.e. a long way from London) parts, so that the situation perpetuates. Then politicians are amazed when "problems" like Brexit appear, as they don't seem to notice that people more than 20 miles away from the capital have lives which ought to be worth living.

i don't understand the reference to the "top three countries". Is the Northern Powerhouse a country, or Merseyside, or whatever ....?

Although it is possible that Mr Osborne was just making political sound bites, the notion of encouraging thriving communities and economies outside London is a very good one, to be encouraged. Even HS1 was supposed to do that, with development around Ashford, but I don't think that has been too successful, at least as far as setting a vibrant local community largely independent from London.

HS2 should not merely be seen as a way for people to commute from Birmingham (or Sheffield, Leeds etc.) to London, which I fear may be part of the reasoning behind it. Areas outside London need to be developing as cultural centres, not merely as inferior places for workers to live, and work in hum drum jobs, places which those elite people in the far superior SE would not wish to go to.

The reference to "country" was a cynical joke. Unlike in the US where traditionally much of the bureaucracy is party political and changes en masse when a Republican President replaces a Democrat one or vice versa, the British Civil Service is supposed to be permanent and neutral. That is precisely how it tends to be at ordinary grade levels, working to support whatever is the elected Government of the day. However, it has long been the case in the British Senior Civil Service that quietly Conservative leaning people leave for big business when a Labour Government is elected. From 2010, when New Labour lost the General Election masses of quietly leaning New Labour types left too. They appeared to disappear into the ether along with MPs who lost their seats or who had "retired". In actuality, they didn't disappear but were no longer quite as regularly on the radio and TV.

They placed themselves in (a) British, European and US Democrat led international economics consultancies so that in the event of Newish Labour being elected again (something they all expected in 2015) they could remain highly influential either by being where they were with their contacts or even moving in large numbers back into the Senior Civil Service and (b) other similar policy networks like the emerging Northern Powerhouse with similar aims. Most of these people are not enthusiastic about Mr Corbyn. They had more common cause with Mr Osborne as they do now with the current Government. And as Conservatives always did that sort of thing, both types now work together in such places.

I support northern regeneration. I am not a huge fan of Labour as it is now although in contrast with the media and much of the public I judge it "policy to policy". My only angle on HS2/3 etc is if it is to be built the countryside should be protected. But the labyrinth of well-off types in places like the NP is extraordinary with interconnections across senior economics, big business and bureaucracy plus senior people in the public sector, academia and private consultancies. It exists as a layer above the day-to-day connection of ordinary folk and rarely comes down from its pedestal to connect with it. That is what I mean by a separate "country". It isn't on the same continent as middle and low incomes.

(You will see that it isn't a party political point or even a policy argument but rather cynicism about organisational structures that too often fail to deliver to those most in need)

[teamsaint]

The new franchise for SW Trains has gone to a Joint venture between First group and a Chinese company.

Reading the press release from the company,it all sounds splendid. Better, faster, more, smarter, etc etc.
Lets hope it is all as good as they say. Actually it does all sound hopeful, and apparently offers more than recent FGW Cross Country franchise renewals.
Not much mention of off peak ticket prices, and local service levels yet, although the better connectivity along the coast is long overdue.

[zola]

The new franchise for SW Trains has gone to a Joint venture between First group and a Chinese company.

Far be it for me to write anything in support of Stagecoach, who could be damned with the faint praise that they have not been as bad as Southern ! But today's announcement is all spin and nonsense. All the glossy new features promised by First and the Chinese are already in place. Platforms have been lengthened on the Reading and Windsor lines, the longer trains are already running empty up and down the line on test runs ( though their internal fittings do not promise any more comfort ) and the rebuild of Waterloo to incorporate the old Eurostar platforms is scheduled for August. Presumably, they just promised the government a bigger kick back.

[cloughie]

The new franchise for SW Trains has gone to a Joint venture between First group and a Chinese company.

Reading the press release from the company,it all sounds splendid. Better, faster, more, smarter, etc etc.
Lets hope it is all as good as they say. Actually it does all sound hopeful, and apparently offers more than recent FGW Cross Country franchise renewals.
Not much mention of off peak ticket prices, and local service levels yet, although the better connectivity along the coast is long overdue.

It does nothing to help the situation west of Exeter. If the Chinese have loads of dosh to dish they could spend some of it on a high speed line from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton, upgrading the existing tracks and filling in the bits around Tavistock that were removed post Beeching.

[teamsaint]

It does nothing to help the situation west of Exeter. If the Chinese have loads of dosh to dish they could spend some of it on a high speed line from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton, upgrading the existing tracks and filling in the bits around Tavistock that were removed post Beeching.

I couldn't agree more about the situation out west, an absolute shambles.

Going back to Zola's points, yes no doubt there is a lot of puff, and smoke and mirrors.Actually one of the things that needs addressing is capacity on off peak services into and out of London, which are often standing room only.
SWT also seem unable ( lack of pathways presumably) to deal adequately with the huge demand for services to Woking. Although the popularity of Woking escapes me.......

[ahinton]

It does nothing to help the situation west of Exeter. If the Chinese have loads of dosh to dish they could spend some of it on a high speed line from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton, upgrading the existing tracks and filling in the bits around Tavistock that were removed post Beeching.

Would there be a market for this, given that there's already a line between those two cities? http://www.greengauge21.net/blog/rur...-a-case-study/ reveals that the route would be 58 miles long whereas the current one from Exeter to Plymouth is just 52 miles.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Would there be a market for this, given that there's already a line between those two cities? http://www.greengauge21.net/blog/rur...-a-case-study/ reveals that the route would be 58 miles long whereas the current one from Exeter to Plymouth is just 52 miles.

Er . . . you forget what happens when the line is washed away at Dawlish.

[ahinton]

Er . . . you forget what happens when the line is washed away at Dawlish.

Not at all. That's only happened twice as far as I know but, when it occurred recently, there was some talk about re-routing the vulnerable part of the line underground, although I don't know if anything's likely to come of that.

[teamsaint]

"Only" twice ??!!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

"Only" twice ??!!

Exactly! And it will "only" happen several more times, and put the line out for "only" several months.

And it "only" affects Devon and Cornwall.

I must declare an interest here, as I'm moving to that part of the world very soon.