Playing with trains/ HS2 & 3

[teamsaint]

Sorry to hear that - have a look at this, it might cheer you up when you think about trains...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5c_WzgToXw

rubbish shop, not going there .

[JFLL]

Good map, Mr P, but you missed out "here be Dragons" somewhere.

And BORING in the bit between London and the North?

[MrGongGong]

And BORING in the bit between London and the North?

So where does "The North" start ?
a few years ago I was working in Shetland
I mentioned that I was next going to do a gig in Inverness
with the response "oh I never go down south"........


It's all relative (aint that the truth Scotty Talisker )

[Lateralthinking1]

I don't have an opinion on HS2 and don't see how anyone could do. We have now had 20-30 years of non-existent northern regional policy. That continues. When it emerged recently that Howe had said to Margaret Thatcher that Liverpool wasn't worth saving, or something similar, the inaction of consecutive governments made sense.

They think the only way in which the northern economy could be rescued is by letting it become 'competitive' with call centres and clothes factories in India. HS2 will only serve a Greater London that is destined to spread towards Birmingham and Brighton ie that will happen with or without HS2 because of its unique economy and increased flights.

The following picture shows what happens with that kind of division in the long term:

[Mr Pee]

I don't have an opinion on HS2 and don't see how anyone could do. We have now had 20-30 years of non-existent northern regional policy. That continues. When it emerged recently that Howe had said to Margaret Thatcher that Liverpool wasn't worth saving, or something similar, the inaction of consecutive governments made sense.

They think the only way in which the northern economy could be rescued is by letting it become 'competitive' with call centres and clothes factories in India. HS2 will only serve a Greater London that is destined to spread towards Birmingham and Brighton. ie it will happen with or without HS2 because of its unique economy and increased flights.

The following picture shows what happens with that kind of division in the long term:

Erm....That is a ludicrous comparison. What have you been drinking?

[Lateralthinking1]

Erm....That is a ludicrous comparison. What have you been drinking?

Nowt. You are right though. I forgot Mr Salmond. He will need to review his immigration policy as everyone north of Milton Keynes who isn't keen on class warfare will be thinking increasingly about the benefits of moving to Edinburgh.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Are there any trains in Mali?

[Lateralthinking1]

Are there any trains in Mali?

Only one line. None if you exclude the part of Mali that is Canada.

[scottycelt]

So where does "The North" start ?
a few years ago I was working in Shetland
I mentioned that I was next going to do a gig in Inverness
with the response "oh I never go down south"........
It's all relative (aint that the truth Scotty Talisker )

Yes indeed, Mr GG, but even the truth can be rather more complicated than simple geography.

I remember way back in the 1970s around the time of the first Scottish devolution referendum all opinion polls showed that the majority of Shetlanders preferred to be ruled from London rather then Edinburgh.

In fact I think I am correct in saying it was the only region of Scotland to vote against (albeit narrowly) the whole idea of devolution.

A contrary, whingeing lot are those Shetlanders ... but they undoubtedly have by far the best (only) claim to the oft-misused term 'North', certainly as far as the UK is concerned!

[Richard Tarleton]

I don't have an opinion on HS2 and don't see how anyone could do.

Spot on . Here we have (leaving aside the people whose homes/farms etc will be directly affected) two fundamentally different points of view, from experts largely in possession of the same information - one, that HS2 will open up the north for the benefit of the north, the other that it will expand the reach of London and enable the south to dominate the north even more effectively. They can't both be right. Neither side knows the outcome. It is a classic situation of the sort described by Paul Ormerod in his book "Why Most Things Fail".

[Resurrection Man]

I don't have an opinion on HS2 and don't see how anyone could do. .....

I do. I think HS2 is a huge white elephant of little benefit to the UK. There are far more worthy infrastructure projects than this one. 'Open up the North'? Pull the other one. Are the trains down to London from Manchester full to bursting? I don't think so. Are train ticket prices going to fall to encourage more use? I doubt it. Folk are still going to jump in a car and drive up the M6.

[Flosshilde]

So where does "The North" start ?

For me it probably starts around Pitlochry.

I do. I think HS2 is a huge white elephant of little benefit to the UK. There are far more worthy infrastructure projects than this one. 'Open up the North'? Pull the other one. Are the trains down to London from Manchester full to bursting? I don't think so. Are train ticket prices going to fall to encourage more use? I doubt it. Folk are still going to jump in a car and drive up the M6.

Manchester certainly isn't 'the North'. North of London, yes, but that isn't the same thing. Trains from Glasgow to London usually are pretty busy, & so are the flights - which is what the HS2 is supposedly aimed at reducing. But it will only make sense if it extends via Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen (lots of business flights London/Aberdeen because of the oil)

(actually the busiest train I travel on regularly is Bournemouth - Manchester; standing room only)

[Simon B]

Are the trains down to London from Manchester full to bursting? I don't think so.

I'm not seeking to make the case for or against HS2 here (and am inclined to agree with the observation already made that it's not currently possible to have a rational view).

However at the times that many people want to travel (obviously there will be lulls at e.g. 14:00 on a Saturday when frequent services are still provided as trains still have to be moved around to be in the right place when the surges in demand do come):

1) The core of the WCML (i.e. the bit common to all services between London and Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow) is approaching or at capacity. As many trains as the infrastructure can support will soon be being jammed through it.

2) The trains, especially those to/from Manchester are almost literally full to bursting already.

At peak times (e.g. Friday afternoon leaving London, Sunday afternoon going in to London), even with 3 maximum length trains per hour you feel privileged if you can find enough space to stand up in. It's rather like being on the Waterloo and City line in the rush hour, but for 2 hours+.

There is a current and worsening capacity problem which is very difficult to address with incremental improvements to the existing infrastructure.

[An_Inspector_Calls]

All the over-capacity problems would cease if every passenger paid the going rate, with no subsidy.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Spot on . Here we have (leaving aside the people whose homes/farms etc will be directly affected) two fundamentally different points of view, from experts largely in possession of the same information - one, that HS2 will open up the north for the benefit of the north, the other that it will expand the reach of London and enable the south to dominate the north even more effectively. They can't both be right. Neither side knows the outcome. It is a classic situation of the sort described by Paul Ormerod in his book "Why Most Things Fail".

It seems to have worked well in Japan, France, Italy, Spain, Belguim and Germany, so there should be similar benefits in the UK. However, I would be in favour of starting it in the north and making London wait, as they have a high speed line already.