Friends of Radio Three?

[Thropplenoggin]

Oh, yes; it was a feeble attempt, Bbm - but one given a grain of "justification" in that it led to JFLL's post.

Gordon's was a humdinger, too.

Anyway, Malcolm Trollcum seems to have been silenced. A case of For3 longa, Talcum brevis.

[kernelbogey]

I agree with everything you say, and would like to add this about populism vs. elitism in the arts. One could argue that ‘populism’ in the provision of the arts is actually more elitist than ‘elitism’, because populists believe that ordinary people – unlike themselves, who are well-educated, cultured, etc. – are not capable of responding to what may be difficult, for instance much classical music, and so must be given a watered-down version, ‘classical lite’ (à la Classic FM), with difficulties smoothed away (‘Smooth Classics’). Whereas an elitist is less inclined to make such assumptions as to the abilities of ordinary people, but believes he/she should be given the best without compromise. Which image of the ordinary person is the more ‘elitist’?

Excellent post.

[johnb]

I agree with everything you say, and would like to add this about populism vs. elitism in the arts. One could argue that ‘populism’ in the provision of the arts is actually more elitist than ‘elitism’, because populists believe that ordinary people – unlike themselves, who are well-educated, cultured, etc. – are not capable of responding to what may be difficult, for instance much classical music, and so must be given a watered-down version, ‘classical lite’ (à la Classic FM), with difficulties smoothed away (‘Smooth Classics’). Whereas an elitist is less inclined to make such assumptions as to the abilities of ordinary people, but believes he/she should be given the best without compromise. Which image of the ordinary person is the more ‘elitist’?

That all depends on how you define 'elitism'.

The online Oxford Dictionary definitions of elitism:

- the belief that a society or system should be led by an elite: local government in the nineteenth century was the very essence of elitism
- the dominance of a society or system by an elite.
- the superior attitude or behaviour associated with an elite: he accused her of racism and white elitism

I think such attitudes are wholly pernicious (but then perhaps your choice of word was infelicitous).

[kernelbogey]

[....] Is that red thing in your avatar a hedgehog?

And is that a bit of hedgehog on what I judge to be your avatar's solar topee, Thropples?

[Thropplenoggin]

And is that a bit of hedgehog on what I judge to be your avatar's solar topee, Thropples?

"You do the math(s)!"

[kernelbogey]

"You do the math(s)!"

By jove, that's a bit racy, what?

[JFLL]

That all depends on how you define 'elitism'.

The online Oxford Dictionary definitions of elitism:

- the belief that a society or system should be led by an elite: local government in the nineteenth century was the very essence of elitism
- the dominance of a society or system by an elite.
- the superior attitude or behaviour associated with an elite: he accused her of racism and white elitism.

I think such attitudes are wholly pernicious (but then perhaps your choice of word was infelicitous).

But there is another, more contemporary, use of ‘elitism’ as a boo-word – one which the OED has not yet caught up with, it seems – as in ‘Radio 3 is elitist', which seems to mean something like ‘Radio 3 broadcasts programmes which can only be appreciated by an elite’. That is precisely what I would dispute. I don’t think that accusation means that Roger Wright and co. regard themselves as an elite in the socio-political sense and have 'superior attitudes' ( and I’m sure these days they would be anxious to deny such a slur.)

I agree that your last example, ‘a superior attitude’ is pernicious, but I wouldn’t necessarily agree that the first two are pernicious. After all, as someoone else said in this thread, I think, we wouldn’t want society to be run by mediocrities and incompetents, would we? . (Though that is unfortunately what we often seem to get.) It also depends on what kind of elite we're talking about. It would be quite legitimate to argue, as many do, that society should not be run by a narrow social elite ('toffs', they might call them), but most of us would presumably like society to be run by 'the best' people, according to our own definition of 'the best'.

[ahinton]

Evidently - but at least you won't find horseburgers at MacDonald's.

Seriously, though, as I doubt very much that Malcolm MacCal(l)um - as I once nicknamed him/them - was being referred to by the epithet Malcolm Talcum, it seems clear to me that he has nothing to do with any of this.

[kernelbogey]

But there is another, more contemporary, use of ‘elitism’ as a boo-word – one which the OED has not yet caught up with, it seems – as in ‘Radio 3 is elitist', which seems to mean something like ‘Radio 3 broadcasts programmes which can only be appreciated by an elite’. [...]

JohnB and I seem to have access to different online OEDs: mine gives:

Advocacy of or reliance on the leadership and dominance of an élite (in a society, or in any body or class of persons).

This seems close to what JFLL is expressing: with an implied accusation that an elite commands and drives the classical music scene.

Perhaps nothing much do with Malc the Talc, but central to many of these boards' discussions.

[Thropplenoggin]

Perhaps nothing much do with Malc the Talc, but central to many of these boards' discussions.

Don't worry about him - he's been, er, powdered.

Does anyone else think this his strange enmity against For3 and its "attacks" might be because he is an employee of R3? The "occasional listening" could be a ruse to throw us of the lavender-perfumed scent.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I'm thinking of starting a new cult forum called "Friend of Friends of Radio 3". Jesuits, Freemasons and fanatics will be especially welcome but membership will be limited to only four people.

Far too small beer! I choose to belong only to those cults whose membership is set at precisely 144,000 as per the Book of Revelation(s)

[ahinton]

Don't worry about him - he's been, er, powdered.

Indeed - and not least because he might be able to talc the talc but he can't walc the walc.

Anyway, whilst it's not on-topic but since he's been mentioned, I'd like to put in a word for Calum/Malcolm MacDonald as one of the very finest writers and broadcaster on music in English today.

[french frank]

That all depends on how you define 'elitism'.

It's now bandied about in a very general sense - just as the word 'aristocracy' has lost its original value judgement of 'rule by the best' ( Greek ἄριστος - the best [of its kind] ). Elitism had a political meaning, dominance in society of the elect, distinguished. Politically, dominance by one specific restricted group or class would be considered a bad thing (wouldn't it?). But 'an elite' in other contexts is positive - those chosen/'elected' precisely for their superior ability, achievements (as applied to sports people).

As it is now sloppily used, it is seemingly considered bad, regardless of its origin. It either is used as a synonym for 'snob', or indicates an exclusive attitude by one group. This is closest to what people mean when they say classical music is 'elitist'. It implies that a minotity are 'in' and the rest of the population are 'out'. And, further, that those who are 'in' want it kept that way. Unless music/art is popularised it excludes. But the other side of the coin is that if it is popularised, it is no longer appealing to the very minority which appreciates it, it no longer meets their requirements.

The silliest - and perhaps most propagandistic - interpretation in the cultural field is that the 'elitists' want to exclude anyone from their 'club'. No, they welcome anyone to the 'club' but they don't want the club rules to be changed so much that they are themselves excluded. Elitist used in this way is a weasel word to be distrusted. And the people who use it are usually those who are insinuating their own unthinking prejudices on others.

[Malcolmtalcum]

I think talcum is doing very well for himself

I wondered why I was hearing people talking in Chinese! Honestly folks, if you think my gentle ribbing makes me a troll you clearly don't use the internet very often.

Excellent - we'll await some further, constructive or informative posts with interested anticipation.

I guess I was asking for that comment but it did make me chuckle. I'm an occasional listener because I have something called a job. You remember what one of those was, surely?

It's a pity, that when talking about R3, some of you come across as a retired old colonel spluttering in rage over his breakfast while reading the Daily Telegraph and thinking the country is going to the dogs.

Having said that, you're actually not a bad lot. During my time here I shall try to think of you as a bunch of lovable British accentrics.

[Beef Oven]

Indeed - and not least because he might be able to talc the talc but he can't walc the walc.

Anyway, whilst it's not on-topic but since he's been mentioned, I'd like to put in a word for Calum/Malcolm MacDonald as one of the very finest writers and broadcaster on music in English today.

And he was brilliant on Superstars.