The 'Nazi Past' of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf

[Mandryka]

I think Vinteuil's words of wisdom on composers on the recent Britten thread apply equally to many great performers.



Those new to classical music, Throppers, would do well to start with Schwarzkopf's voice, I'd say. I share ff's weary sigh on seeing this old warhorse trotted out again. Karajan, Gooddall, Clemens Krauss, Gieseking...a whole troop of cavalry here.

Yep, I think Marcel knew a thing or two. :)

[Thropplenoggin]

I think Vinteuil's words of wisdom on composers on the recent Britten thread apply equally to many great performers.

Those new to classical music, Throppers, would do well to start with Schwarzkopf's voice, I'd say. I share ff's weary sigh on seeing this old warhorse trotted out again. Karajan, Gooddall, Clemens Krauss, Gieseking...a whole troop of cavalry here.

Vinteuil is, of course, correct. He approves of the novels of the anti-Semite, Celine. I like TS Eliot, who also shared this habit of of Jew-bashing (generally accepted at the time by certain parts of the conservative intelligentsia(a misnomer on this occasion)). Phillip Larkin was a jazz lover and private racist, or so his letters now reveal. Yet their poems still move me. I can dissociate art from the artist. But I still think it's a philosophical debate worth having.

My problem is with Schwarzkopf's persistent denial of the facts of her own life, whatever the reasons may have been for them. I find it troubling.

I'm sorry you feel the need to sigh over the fact that someone just getting into classical music and learning of this controversy should wish to learn more about it. No one is forcing you to read such "sigh-inducing" threads.

[Mandryka]

There are those in the Jewish community who believe that the Shoa has been turned into a mawkish industry that has cheapened remembrance of this human catastrophe, and actually proved a hindrance .

A belief that I share, although I am not Jewish.

There is something prurient about a lot of Holocaust talk in the media. People shoud be aware of the facts, yes, but the way broadcasters seem sometimes to linger on the gory details strikes me as exploitative.

[Mandryka]

Vinteuil is, of course, correct. He approves of the novels of the anti-Semite, Celine. I like TS Eliot, who also shared this generally accepted view of Jew-bashing. Phillip Larkin was a private racist. Yet their poems still move me. I can dissociate art from the artist. But I still think it's a philosophical debate worth having.

My problem is with Schwarzkopf's persistent denial of the facts of her own life, whatever the reasons may have been for them. I find it troubling.

I'm sorry you feel the need to sigh over the fact that someone just getting into classical music and learning of this controversy should wish to learn more about it. No one is forcing you to read such "sigh-inducing" threads.

Well, Karajan fessed up to his Nazi membership and claimed he joined because he wanted to go skiiing. Nobody really bought his explanation, which seemed then - and now - far too flippant. That doesn't mean, of course, that it wasn't the reason he joined.

With the example of her good friend Herbie before her, ES 'may' have reasoned that the best course was just to deny everything.

[amateur51]

A belief that I share, although I am not Jewish.

Being Jewish is not necessary to being repelled by the Holocaust, I'd suggest that the mere fact of being human would be sufficient. As a gay man I know that I would have been in mortal danger in Nazi Europe. That is one of my reasons for supporting Holocaust Memorial Day.

[Thropplenoggin]

Being Jewish is not necessary to being repelled by the Holocaust. As a gay man I know that I would have been in mortal danger in Nazi Europe. That is one of my reasons for supporting Holocaust Memorial Day.

You'd also have been in mortal danger in Stalin's USSR.

[Richard Tarleton]

I'm sorry you feel the need to sigh over the fact that someone just getting into classical music and learning of this controversy should wish to learn more about it. No one is forcing you to read such "sigh-inducing" threads.

Well, OK....it would be a shame if a newcomer were to be sidetracked from exploring her recorded legacy....

[amateur51]

You'd also have been in mortal danger in Stalin's USSR.

Indeed I should and I would gladly support the Great Purge Day that I understand you're busy planning even now, Throppers

[doversoul1]

My problem is with Schwarzkopf's persistent denial of the facts of her own life, whatever the reasons may have been for them. I find it troubling.

I'm sorry you feel the need to sigh over the fact that someone just getting into classical music and learning of this controversy should wish to learn more about it. No one is forcing you to read such "sigh-inducing" threads.

I think the best way to do this is to read published, credible materials. Inviting casual comments on a forum like this won’t get you very far. I am sure there are many members here who are happy to inform you where to start by PM.

I think some subjects are not suitable to discuss on a forum like this one, as there are no criteria for discussion, it can easily be filled with unsubstantiated comments and views. These views won’t help our understanding of the subject, but worse, as the forum can be seen by anyone, certain views posted can attract people to the forum who have their own agendas but have no real interest in classical music.

And we should remind ourselves from time to time that this is after all, french frank’s forum. She does all the hard work, we don’t. In theory, french frank can say ‘if you don’t like what I do/say, leave the forum’.

[Thropplenoggin]

I think the best way to do this is to read published, credible materials. Inviting casual comments on a forum like this won’t get you very far. I am sure there are many members here who are happy to inform you where to start by PM.

I think some subjects are not suitable to discuss on a forum like this one, as there are no criteria for discussion, it can easily be filled with unsubstantiated comments and views. These posts won’t help our understanding of the subject, but worse, as the forum can be seen by anyone, certain views posted can attract people to the forum who have their own agendas but have no real interest in classical music.

And we should remind ourselves from time to time that this is after all, french frank’s forum. She does all the hard work, we don’t. In theory, french frank can say ‘if you don’t like what I do/say, leave the forum’.

What a depressing response. I don't see why this subject should be 'off limits'. What is the point of a forum where selective censorship applies to supposedly taboo subjects, such as ES's membership of the Nazi party? Having lived in a country where the media is controlled, where propaganda is exerted over a repressed people, I value the freedom to be able to discuss such ideas. I don't see this as being particularly taboo, especially among adults, some of whom are extremely knowledgeable. Aren't I better placed here to ask the question and canvass a wide range of subjective opinions than risk reading a book which might be skewed to one particular point of view?

The fact is, no one forces you to engage with such threads if they bother you so much. Isn't that the point of any message board? Or should all subjects for discussion receive consensus approval before going live?

Perhaps I don't belong in this forum after all.

[french frank]

All I will say is that discussing Nazism is never popular with those who run forums. And if you'd seen how such 'discussions' deteriorate, you'd know why. Some subjects are obviously too 'sensitive' for public debate.

[Thropplenoggin]

All I will say is that discussing Nazism is never popular with those who run forums. And if you'd seen how such 'discussions' deteriorate, you'd know why. Some subjectis are too 'sensitive' for public debate.

I understand that, FF, and thanks for sharing your unique perspective. But, as I've said several times now, it's more Schwarzkopf's persistent denial of this past that I find troubling and wanted to discuss, not Nazi ideology.

[ahinton]

I understand that, FF, and thanks for sharing your unique perspective. But, as I've said several times now, it's more Schwarzkopf's persistent denial of this past that I find troubling and wanted to discuss, not Nazi ideology.

I think that, as far as this goes, it's fair enough in distinguishing whether an individual might lie about his/her past from that past itself.

That said, however, the total losses of life in the Holocaust, the Great Purge and at least a further 50 instances of genocide in which from at least 2,000 up to some 12m did so still fall short - possibly be millions or even tens of millions - many millions short of the total that is laid at the door of Mao Zedong (see http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html); I am neither suggesting that there ought accordingly to be at least 50 such memorial days or undermining the scourge of the Holocaust but, since such events have nevertheless between them been responsible for the loss of some 20% of the entire world's population, it is surely deserving of mention...

[doversoul1]

What a depressing response. I don't see why this subject should be 'off limits'. What is the point of a forum where selective censorship applies to supposedly taboo subjects, such as ES's membership of the Nazi party? Having lived in a country where the media is controlled, where propaganda is exerted over a repressed people, I value the freedom to be able to discuss such ideas. I don't see this as being particularly taboo, especially among adults, some of whom are extremely knowledgeable. Aren't I better placed here to ask the question and canvass a wide range of subjective opinions than risk reading a book which might be skewed to one particular point of view?

The fact is, no one forces you to engage with such threads if they bother you so much. Isn't that the point of any message board? Or should all subjects for discussion receive consensus approval before going live?

Perhaps I don't belong in this forum after all.

You seem to have missed the point of my comment: this is a private forum which is a completely different thing from the public media of a country.

If you want to know about a subject, you don’t read a book. You read as many as you can. A wide range of subjective opinions can wait until you gain enough understanding by reading a wide range of serious studies.

Certain subjects deteriorate sooner or later into a series of personal abuses. Anyone who has been on this forum for more than a year can tell you. Apparently this is a common occurrence in most online forums.

it's more Schwarzkopf's persistent denial of this past that I find troubling and wanted to discuss, not Nazi ideology.

Unfortunately, Nazi-related subjects have the same effect.

Perhaps I don't belong in this forum after all

It's the subject and not you.

[Mandryka]

I would agree with doversoul up to a point: and I would certainly agree that the term 'Nazi' (like the term 'racist') has become an all-purpose pejorative to throw at someone whose views might not coincide with your own (not that I've seen such behaviour on THIS forum).

However, Nazis and Nazism are 'old news': they have been around for nearly a century - surely it is safe to discuss them, provided the discussion doesn't blur the boundaries into abuse.