David Cameron's Europe Speech

[MrGongGong]

But, I don't think you are right when you imply that the public knew what they were getting into

That's what I was saying to my daughter the other day

[Beef Oven]

That's what I was saying to my daughter the other day

That is even more obscure than your soccer-match analogy for EU membership.

[MrGongGong]

That is even more obscure than your soccer-match analogy for EU membership.

Keep up

"I'd like to "renegotiate" being a parent, it's been an interesting 20 years or so but i'm not sure that it's really for me "

[Beef Oven]

Keep up

"I'd like to "renegotiate" being a parent, it's been an interesting 20 years or so but i'm not sure that it's really for me "

Good grief, it wasn't obscure at all!

You actually meant that the universal and inalienable responsibilty of parenthood, and that perfection known as Association Football, are analogous to the current state of the EU and how far the feast has been moved!!!!

[scottycelt]

As a young 'pro-Common Market' schoolboy, I distinctly remember being quite embarrassed about the very obvious tactics of the government to determine the outcome of the referendum. This side of it seemed to be the only downside of our position on the matter. This link illustrates what I mean....http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...membership.htm

Well sadly, Beefy, it's patently obvious that you and I can no longer be described as 'young' but wasn't it Harold Wilson's government that held the referendum?

There were divisions in all parties, but the leading politicians of the three main parties were in favour of membership just as they are now!

Nothing much has changed in that regard, the only real difference being that anti-European sentiment is now much stronger in the Tory party rather than Labour.

[BBMmk2]

Well sadly, Beefy, it's patently obvious that you and I can no longer be described as 'young' but wasn't it Harold Wilson's government that held the referendum?

There were divisions in all parties, but the leading politicians of the three main parties were in favour of membership just as they are now!

Nothing much has changed in that regard, the only real difference being that anti-European sentiment is now much stronger in the Tory party rather than Labour.

I beleve it was Edward Heath's goverment SC.

[amateur51]

It was inevitable that our former Great British Statesman would wade in with his two pennorth ....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jan/23/tony-blair-cameron-eu-gun

[scottycelt]

I beleve it was Edward Heath's goverment SC.

It was Teddy who took us in but 'twas actually Harry who held the referendum, BBM ...
he did that for exactly the same reason as Cameron is doing now ... to try and hold his party together and remain PM, 'in the national interest'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum,_1975

[ahinton]

The referendum is not scheduled to take place for another 6+ years, by which time the next government will have been in office for half of its term; it is most unlikely to take place at all if there is other than a Conservative majority government following the 20125 General Election (for, whilst Mr Miliballs has set his party against the kind of referendum now proposed in the circumstances in which it is currently proposed, he has admitted that he is not entirely against holding one under any circumstances).

As Mr Pee has rightly observed EU is an entirely different animal now to what it was when the Wilson referendum took place; the politics are very different, life for us all has changed beyond recognition and there are almost three times as many member nations as there were then; OK, as has also been correctly noted, the Commonwealth has changed beyond recognition but Britain's still in that, but then the British Empire has collapsed altogether so we can't any longer be in that!

No one seems yet to have considered the situation in which an independent Scotland will successfully have applied for EU membership before the referendum is due to take place and the consequences of having England, Wales and Northern Ireland out and Scotland in post-referendum (assuming that the referendum does take place and results in a vote to leave EU).

The only possible positive outcome of all of this is that various detailed renegotiations spearheaded by Britain might actually improve certain situations not only for Britain but for the remainder of EU but, if this were a pre-referendum outcome, this would surely weaken the case for a referendum.

Some anti-EU people who'd like to see Britain leave seek to cite US as being a more credible partner for Britain, yet it's thousands of miles away and the US government is dead against Britain leaving EU anyway.

The UKIP claim that everything in Britain will be lovely once it has left has no credibility whatsoever and seems to me to have been ill thought through; if ever Britain were to leave EU either by resigning or being ejected therefrom - whether or not as a consequence of the noises made by UKIP - I strongly suspect that UKIP will come to regret it when the British electorate rounds upon it as a result of those many things that are likely to deteriorate in Britain following its severance from EU.

Whilst there can be no doubt that EU is in need of constant reform and rebalancing, Britain severing its ties with it will inevitably have a destabilising effect both in Britain itself and within the remainder of EU (which is doubtless one reason why Merkel is so keen that Britain remains within it). That said, EU as currently constituted is not "Europe" but a mere part of Western Europe; even the Council of Europe, which embraces a further 20 European nations, does not constitute or represent "the whole of Europe". It is likely to require many decades for Europe as a whole to be brought together in a greatly expanded EU and it will also require no end of wit, wisdom, commitment and determination.

[Serial_Apologist]

The only possible positive outcome of all of this is that various detailed renegotiations spearheaded by Britain might actually improve certain situations not only for Britain but for the remainder of EU

I know this is only one point among many previously unconsidered on this thread AH, but, such as? dropping the minimum wage? fishing the seas to exhaustion? ditching policies protective (to some degree) of the environment?

[scottycelt]

The EU now includes much of what is considered Central & Eastern Europe, not just Western Europe, and, of course, there are still countries queuing to join. Remaining countries are associate members or are tied in some way to the EU. To all intents and purposes the EU now represents Europe and may well eventually expand into Asia.

Even Russia has a Partnership & Co-operation Agreement with the EU and there are moves to strengthen this further.

I find it curious that some Britons apparently did not believe that the Common Market would expand both politically and economically after they voted 'Yes' in 1975.

Did they really think that no other countries would see where their future lay and didn't want to be left behind as well ... ?

[Beef Oven]

I know this is only one point among many previously unconsidered on this thread AH, but, such as? dropping the minimum wage? fishing the seas to exhaustion? ditching policies protective (to some degree) of the environment?

Why would we want to do that just because we have left Europe?

P.S. Europe is showing itself to be either dis-interested or incompetent in tackling over-fishing.

[teamsaint]

on a more general level, in or out of the EU, I see no reason to trust the current european politicans to do things right any more than our own crooked lot.

[handsomefortune]

It was inevitable that our former Great British Statesman would wade in with his two pennorth ....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...cameron-eu-gun

i couldn't help thinking his two penneth were a disaster for any renewed labour support!

and darn it - i anticipated blair's quote from 'blazing saddles' to be 'candy gram for mungo' ...!

i should have remembered that tony's always disappointing, tedious as well as treacherous.

BUT what's it got to do with tb anyway?

frenzied r4 euro-chat last night, featured a male guest who claimed about uk/euro relations, that 'zee cleavage eez superficial', followed by a few seconds of absolute silence, (which is v unusual in r4 news programmes, especially when they're 'on one' about a new twist in political developments). he's right though, i agree that the 'cleavage' is spun, and for all its worth, by our anxious pm. (mainly as some of his chums are 99 yrs, wobbling around, crashing into furniture in 'the house of lords', while the 'youngsters' in ukip try to 'take over the country, and steal the coalitions' jobs'!

i thoroughly enjoyed nigel farage's lunchtime sob story, about everyone being absolutely rotten to him and his party.... though it might've been best placed as a part of 'the archers' storyline 10 mins later, plus sheep noise fx?

[Beef Oven]

Even Russia has a Partnership & Co-operation Agreement with the EU and there are moves to strengthen this further.

And they don't have to pay £50,000,000 per day for it like we do, nor do they have to suffer the removal of core manufacturing plants to the Republic of Turkey