David Cameron's Europe Speech

[scottycelt]

Am I right in thinking Britain could be evicted from the EU if a government unilaterally ignored EU laws and then refused to pay the fines for so doing?

In theory, maybe, but a UK exit would also be a huge blow for the EU. Look how Germany has bent over backwards to keep Greece in the Euro. A UK exit from the EU would be a hundred times more significant in international terms.

It just won't happen, imv.

In the modern world Europe desperately needs to stick together, and the UK is unique in being the one major European country that, even yet, has never quite come to terms with this reality.

[amateur51]

Indeed; this whole thing is mainly for domestic spin - to face up to UKIP's challenge to the Tories

but Merkel, Hollande et al will understand this. Dave might wind up warming to them if they ease him through with a few dainty concessions

Blair unfortunately appears not to have tried this with Dubbya, otherwise we might have been able to avoid the Iraqi 'adventure', as Wilson avoided the Vietnam catastrophe (something Mandryka will never give him credit for ).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

but Merkel, Hollande et al will understand this. Dave might wind up warming to them if they ease him through with a few dainty concessions

[Lateralthinking1]

I will vote to stay in to protect my 25.25 years of four figure public sector pension. They are chomping at the bit to renege on it along with everything else. Everyone in a similar position will have to do likewise, however diabolical the EU workings. It could mean the difference between eating and starving at age 70. For many, it is effectively a referendum on compulsory euthanasia.

[Petrushka]

The whole structure and concept of the EU has changed beyond recognition since that original vote. It is a totally different animal now.

Indeed so. That 1975 referendum was my very first experience of the polling booth. I voted 'yes' then.

[johnb]

Cameron's speech leaves me profoundly depressed. As far as I can tell there was absolutely no need to lay down his terms (however muddled and amorphous they might be) at this time - doing so merely creates uncertainty for businesses and investors. He has made the speech totally for Tory party purposes - because his party doesn't trust him on Europe and because of fear of the UKIP.

[Barbirollians]

It is a disgrace - a sop to his Rabid Right and UKIP - it surely is the death knell for any renewal of the Coalition .

[Pabmusic]

It is a disgrace - a sop to his Rabid Right and UKIP - it surely is the death knell for any renewal of the Coalition .

Quite. The Liberals have some serious questions to ask themselves now.

[scottycelt]

The whole structure and concept of the EU has changed beyond recognition since that original vote. It is a totally different animal now.

Of course it is and that was always the idea, whatever self-serving UK politicians said in 1975.

In those days youth and progressive opinion were almost all in favour. We knew the Common Market was just the start of a brave new enterprise to cement a historic peace in Europe after centuries of strife culminating in horrendous world wars.

My young friends and I attended a packed event in the Free Trade Hall in Manchester where all the talk was about moves towards European union. Only the Daily Express of the mainstream newspapers prattled on with dire warnings about a 1/4d on a barrel of New Zealand butter. Even Margaret Thatcher was pro-European at the time. There was no secret agenda in order to fool people in the UK. The Common Market itself had evolved from the original European Iron & Steel Community.

It almost defies belief that, two generations later, there are those in the UK who still claim they didn't really know what they were voting for at the original referendum whether it was'Yes' or 'No'.

Cameron says he doesn't like talk of a 'two-speed Europe, but that is exactly what he appears to be advocating. He knows that the majority of countries will continue towards ultimate political union and others like the UK will be left far behind in the 'slow lane' without any real influence regarding further decisions in the future which affect them. Another really cool idea, eh?

Apart from anything else, France and Germany are certainly not going to listen to political 'flat-earthers' in the UK such as Nigel Farage and suddenly break free from their now well-entangled and successful economic and political ties simply to suit some crazy British!

[MrGongGong]

Quite. The Liberals have some serious questions to ask themselves now.

Indeed they do

This whole mess is another load of self interest masquerading as "national interest"
so half way through a football match you decide to "renegotiate" the rules ???

I'm surprised the rest of the countries in the EU don't kick the UK out (or is that the REAL sub-plot ?)

I'd like to "renegotiate" being a parent, it's been an interesting 20 years or so but i'm not sure that it's really for me

[scottycelt]

Indeed they do

This whole mess is another load of self interest masquerading as "national interest"
so half way through a football match you decide to "renegotiate" the rules ???

I'm surprised the rest of the countries in the EU don't kick the UK out (or is that the REAL sub-plot ?)

I'd like to "renegotiate" being a parent, it's been an interesting 20 years or so but i'm not sure that it's really for me

Don't worry I believe Toff Dave has cunning plans to change the definition of 'parent' as well, Mr GG ...

[MrGongGong]

Don't worry I believe Toff Dave has cunning plans to change the definition of 'parent' as well, Mr GG ...

That's what my husband was telling me as well

[Pabmusic]

Don't worry I believe Toff Dave has cunning plans to change the definition of 'parent' as well, Mr GG ...

It does rather sound like he plans to change the definition of 'membership'.

[Beef Oven]

Of course it is and that was always the idea, whatever self-serving UK politicians said in 1975.

In those days youth and progressive opinion were almost all in favour. We knew the Common Market was just the start of a brave new enterprise to cement a historic peace in Europe after centuries of strife culminating in horrendous world wars.

My young friends and I attended a packed event in the Free Trade Hall in Manchester where all the talk was about moves towards European union. Only the Daily Express of the mainstream newspapers prattled on with dire warnings about a 1/4d on a barrel of New Zealand butter. Even Margaret Thatcher was pro-European at the time. There was no secret agenda in order to fool people in the UK. The Common Market itself had evolved from the original European Iron & Steel Community.

It almost defies belief that, two generations later, there are those in the UK who still claim they didn't really know what they were voting for at the original referendum whether it was'Yes' or 'No'.

Cameron says he doesn't like talk of a 'two-speed Europe, but that is exactly what he appears to be advocating. He knows that the majority of countries will continue towards ultimate political union and others like the UK will be left far behind in the 'slow lane' without any real influence regarding further decisions in the future which affect them. Another really cool idea, eh?

Apart from anything else, France and Germany are certainly not going to listen to political 'flat-earthers' in the UK such as Nigel Farage and suddenly break free from their now well-entangled and successful economic and political ties simply to suit some crazy British!

My young friends and I were, although not quite old enough to vote in the referendum, lucky to be able to discuss the Common Market in our school's debating forum. Our economics master led the discussions in a most objective and non-political manner. We concluded that it would be a great thing and wanted to get on with it!

But, I don't think you are right when you imply that the public knew what they were getting into (the political and legislative side of things), or that public opinion was positive about the whole business. In fact, I think the public was pretty sceptical.

As a young 'pro-Common Market' schoolboy, I distinctly remember being quite embarrassed about the very obvious tactics of the government to determine the outcome of the referendum. This side of it seemed to be the only downside of our position on the matter. This link illustrates what I mean....http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...membership.htm

[MrGongGong]

It does rather sound like he plans to change the definition of 'membership'.

Quite
and the total misunderstanding about what the word "Federal" means
I've only worked with music students at Oxbridge but they seemed to be quite clever unlike Dave and chums who seem to struggle with language