So who will be the Berlin Phil.'s music director once Sir Simon leaves?

[Nick Armstrong]

Which set has the Berio Sinfonia?

I think you meant the Concertgebouw thread?

[Nick Armstrong]

I think you may be on the wrong thread, Bbm.

Snap

[BBMmk2]

Snap

Confused.com!!

[teamsaint]

Snap

isn't sorting that sort of thing out your new speciality, Cali?

lets merge some threads !!

[bluestateprommer]

Some random thoughts from this side of the pond, which may be ill-informed given that folks like me are at a great distance literally from the situation, but that aside:

Looking back at the choices and tenures of Abbado and Rattle, some points stand out. With respect to Abbado, he had a long relationship as a guest-conductor with the Berlin Phil dating back to the 1960's. So he was obviously a known quantity when the time came for the BPO musicians to elect their next chief conductor after Karajan's 1989 resignation. My understanding was that Carlos Kleiber was the BPO's first choice, but being Kleiber, he said no. So next was Abbado, where I don't know that the vote was unanimous, but at the very least a substantial majority. Had Abbado said no, I remember reading a past NYT article where Nicholas Kenyon had interviewed Bernard Haitink, and the subject of Berlin came up. There was a passage to the effect that Haitink was very high in the ranking, and that had it not been Abbado, it most likely would have been Haitink. Obviously things didn't work out that way, of course.

Regarding the end of Abbado's tenure, one has to remember that the ending was far from smooth there, in the context currently of the worst, most gossip-mongering, sloppiest, most fact-challenged and mean-spirited writer in classical music attempting to stir the pot with rumors of BPO musician discontent with Rattle, and who shall remain nameless (but Norman Lebrecht is pretty close). The announcement that Abbado would be leaving the BPO in 2002 after the expiration of his contract there came on a TV interview in 1998. No one in the orchestra had been aware that Abbado was thinking of leaving, so they were completely blindsided by this statement. And I remember reading that there was musician discontent then as well. Of course, not long after, Abbado's stomach cancer became a horrible situation for all parties, with him undergoing severe medical treatment and having to cancel concerts right and left. So by the time 2002 rolled around, all was pretty much forgiven emotionally, or at least swept under the rug.

With Rattle, my understanding is that his BPO debut was something like 1987, with Mahler 6 (please correct me if I'm mistaken), but where he originally wanted to lead the Deryck Cooke completion of Mahler 10. (That came 10 years later, of course, as the EMI recording documents.) Rattle's election as BPO chief conductor was in 1999, something like 16-18 months after Abbado's bombshell TV statement. The point here is that whether or not there is some BPO discontentment with SSR (there may well be, but very few chief conductors/music directors are universally loved all the time), this is going to be a very smooth transition for the BPO, and Rattle, compared to Abbado. Rattle himself told the musicians prior to any public announcement, unlike the Abbado situation. This obviously allowed the musicians and the management to put together civil public statements on the situation. But more importantly, it's also very gracious on Rattle's part, to give them plenty of time to start evaluating guest conductors for the next 2-3 years or so, and really come to a wise decision for the orchestra's future. They're going to take their time, and Rattle with this announcement has given them notice of plenty of time.

With both Rattle and Abbado, the long spans of time between their first appearances with the BPO and their respective elections as chief conductor are also indicative that the BPO wants to choose a conductor whom they know well, in terms of a long-standing guest-conductor relationship. They aren't going to go the route of more regional US (or UK) orchestras, where the orchestra and a conductor might "get married after one date". In the US, this basically happened with such orchestras and conductors as Jaap van Zweden and the Dallas Symphony, and Jacques Lacombe and the New Jersey Symphony, each of them being named respective music directors after one concert each. With Louis Langree and the Cincinnati Symphony, and Manfred Honeck and the Pittsburgh Symphony, I think that it was 2 concerts each. I also think it was two for YNS and Philadelphia, but Philadelphia was obviously a more desperate situation, by comparison.

This is where I'll confess ignorance and admit that I don't know how long the guest-conducting relationships (GCR, for convenience) have been between the BPO and conductors like Nelsons and Dudamel, among the young guns, apart from the older generation like Chailly and Thielemann. Because Nelsons and Dudamel are quite young (34 & 31, respectively), the time frame is obviously a lot shorter for their GCR's with the BPO. From the older generation, obviously Jansons and Barenboim have probably the longest GCR's, but because they're in their 70's, they obviously are not in the running.

In terms of age and a potential long-term tenure as BPO chief conductor, looking back, Abbado was 56 when he was elected, and Rattle 44 (taking over when he was 47). I don't see any immediate candidates born in the 1960's who leap out, although one candidate the orchestra might considering inviting, if he hasn't yet guested with the BPO, is Sakari Oramo (born 1965). All the other people under discussion here were born either in the 1950's (Chailly, Thielemann, Fischer) or 1970's and later (Jurowski, YNS, Nelsons, Volkov, Dudamel).

One also has to consider where the other candidates already have committments. Just about all the major candidates have other, very important positions as it stands, 3 of them in Germany, as it turns out, Chailly with the Gewandhaus Leipzig, Thielemann with the Staatskapelle Dresden (can't remember off hand if he has the Semper Oper also), and Fischer with the Konzerthaus Orchestra Berlin. Jurowski has the LPO and is leaving Glyndebourne in a year, but also has a Russian band, the Svetlanov State Symphony or some such name (doesn't exactly trip off the tongue). YNS has both Philadelphia and Rotterdam, so it's questionable to me if he'd have room for Berlin, unless he gives up Rotterdam in 2018 (that would be 10 years for YNS there).

Rattle was free of other permanent gigs when he got the nod, which probably helped, that he would make Berlin his first committment and not jet-set everywhere, like a Gergiev. Rattle even decided to buy a residence in Berlin, and how many chief conductors or music directors do that these days when they take over an orchestra? I'm not a mega-fan of Rattle by any stretch of the imagination, but I can appreciate the gesture of loyalty that choosing to reside in the city in question means. Plus, with Rattle, he's obviously in a position to do whatever the heck he wants. Maybe Philadelphia will try to reel him in yet again. They've tried at least twice, and couldn't quite pull it off. 3rd time the charm, who knows? The catch in Philly is that YNS is contracted through 2017 currently, although I can easily imagine at least one contract extension by the end of this season, or next. For years, Philadelphia was the only US orchestra that Rattle guest-conducted, although he broke that rule recently with a return gig with the LA Phil (wonder what message that sent to the Philadelphia Orchestra management, after the bankruptcy mess there).

My own bias is that I hope the BPO consider Jurowski, in spite of his iffy tastes in contemporary music. Jurowski has worked much in Berlin, but I don't know if he's guested with the BPO. I think Berlin will continue to want to look towards the future, as they did with Rattle. This kind of thinking would, hopefully IMHO, rule out Thielemann, since Thielemann strikes me as borderline reactionary in his musical tastes, not to mention being a preening narcissist in his style (kind of like Lebrecht there).

Hmm, pretty long ramble here (sorry). In short, I don't know whom the BPO musicians will choose, but they'll obviously go their own way, regardless of what any of us think. But it will be fun to watch, if from a distance.

[Bryn]

isn't sorting that sort of thing out your new speciality, Cali?

lets merge some threads !!

Well if the baden-Baden and Stuttgart RSOs can combine, why not the RCO and the BPO. I'm sure that at least the Dutch Minister of Culture would be very happy to save some money that way.

[teamsaint]

Well if the baden-Baden and Stuttgart RSOs can combine, why not the RCO and the BPO. I'm sure that at least the Dutch Minister of Culture would be very happy to save some money that way.

so they might be the BR CO-OP?

[Nick Armstrong]

isn't sorting that sort of thing out your new speciality, Cali?

lets merge some threads !!

Easy, tiger!

[ahinton]

Might you care to explain your apparent merriment at the prospect? (mais absolutely no obligation, naturellement)...

[jayne lee wilson]

If this lone wolf can howl just once more, in last night's Berlin DCH concert interval the principal oboist (with a twinkle in his eye) asked Chailly how the orchestra had changed since he first encountered it in Karajan's day. Chailly replied that it was much more flexible and responsive now, able to turn its hand to any style of music, but - the "old Berlin" sound was still there to draw out if you wanted it. It was unspoken, but obvious to whom he gave the credit for that. Rattle was never going to just Preserve a Great Tradition, he always wants to make it new. Coming up soon in Berlin he's doing the Lutoslawski Preludes and Fugue, Dutilleux's Metaboles, Hindemith's Kammermusik, and Tippett's Child of Our Time. Next week, "In Vain" for 24 instruments by Georg Friedrich Haas. Friday nights look very bright!

Follow my howls and come to Berlin... now, back to the den.

[scottycelt]

If this lone wolf can howl just once more, in last night's Berlin DCH concert interval the principal oboist (with a twinkle in his eye) asked Chailly how the orchestra had changed since he first encountered it in Karajan's day. Chailly replied that it was much more flexible and responsive now, able to turn its hand to any style of music, but - the "old Berlin" sound was still there to draw out if you wanted it. It was unspoken, but obvious to whom he gave the credit for that. Rattle was never going to just Preserve a Great Tradition, he always wants to make it new. Coming up soon in Berlin he's doing the Lutoslawski Preludes and Fugue, Dutilleux's Metaboles, Hindemith's Kammermusik, and Tippett's Child of Our Time. Next week, "In Vain" for 24 instruments by Georg Friedrich Haas. Friday nights look very bright!

Follow my howls and come to Berlin... now, back to the den.

Yes, get back to your den, I've got much bigger howls of my own, thank you very much ...

I've already waited 3 hours 50 mins for last night's concert from Berlin to be 'edited' so I can view it ... so much for German technical expertise and efficiency.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It was unspoken, but obvious to whom he gave the credit for that. Rattle

He might also have been paying homage to Abbado, who brought Nono, Stockhausen, Kurtag and Mussorgsky amongst others into the BPO repertoire (as well as recording the complete Hindemith Kammermusik with them).

[Mr Pee]

Might you care to explain your apparent merriment at the prospect? (mais absolutely no obligation, naturellement)...

Well, obviously I thought it was a joke.


It was, wasn't it?

[Beef Oven]

Well, obviously I thought it was a joke.


It was, wasn't it?

I could see it working.

[Belgrove]

Thanks for your thoughtful, extensive, fascinating and insightful analysis bluestateprommer.

I side with you that Jurowski would be an exciting choice that would stimulate the BPO to evolve in interesting directions, from which the world of music would undoubtedly profit given his past form. From a parochial UK perspective, we would miss his fine leadership on both concert platform and in the opera pit.