Is true socialism possible?

[amateur51]

My Jewish network? I don't have one as such, and if I did I doubt the Times would comment on it.

Some, of course, simply used that fear as an excuse, as the reforms Allende made were hurting US companies, which had (and still have) far too large an influence on US policy, in part at least through the Jewish network

This one

My reference to the Times' non-comment was ironic

[Beef Oven]

Good evening, Simon. It has been a long time since we last conversed online. The greatest practitioners of economics, for example, Adam Smith, John Maynard Keynes etc, have all recognised the fragility of their own conclusions. In the popular imagination, however, economics has taken on far greater pretensions. It has moved into the void left by the decline of religion and is increasingly seen as the main preoccupation of public policy, a panacea for social ills, even the source of private contentment. It dominates the political debate, not only in the United Kingdom (UK), but all over the world. Whether George Osborne, Ed Balls or anyone else has the best prescription for the UK economy is an interesting question. Fortunately, kleines c, of course, is in a better position to recognise, both privately and publicly, the fragility of his own conclusions. 'The Wealth of Nations' (1776) changed our understanding of the economic world just as Isaac Newton's 'Principia' (1687) changed our understanding of the physical world and Charles Darwin's 'Origin of Species' (1859) changed our understanding of the natural world. If I may quote Karl Marx directly, Simon:

"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/inourtime/greatest_philosopher_karl_marx.shtml

Karl Marx long ago observed the way in which unbridled capitalism became a kind of mythology, ascribing reality, power and agency to things that had no life in themselves; he was right about that, if about little else. Marx said we should let the workers rule OK because then they will rule on behalf of the great mass of society, the working class. Bakunin said no. You shouldn't have any rulers, because if workers are rulers, they will cease to be workers and will be rulers. They will follow the interests of the rulers, not the interest interests of the working class. This is a bit like George Orwell's 'Animal Farm', Simon. The pigs took over, but no one could then tell the difference. Marx thought that this was all rubbish. Marx thought that people in a different society would be different people, would have different, less self-directed interests, and would work together for the benefit of all. If you look at the history of the twentieth century, Bakunin was right?

The short answer may be that history is neither about individuals (Carlyle) nor about societies (Marx), but what Georg Hegel calls 'Geist'. It is the idea that a unified view of history is something mental or spiritual, and therefore the process of history is simply ourselves. Indeed, the great philosopher, David Hume, argued that the science of human nature depends upon the observation of our mind and our observation of other human beings. Perhaps human nature does not seem to change that much over time, despite the great advances in science and technology? David Hume set out to show that the paradoxes of different interpretations of history could be resolved once we recognised that space and time are not mysterious entities but simply the particular ordering in which our perceptions present themselves to us. In this sense, the unified view that each individual arrives at is likely to be different and, almost certainly in some instances, radically so. Even in its original Greek sense, economics, 'the management of the home and the estate', cannot really be considered in isolation. Events get in the way, Simon. According to Pericles, the man who can most truly be accounted brave is he who knows what is sweet in life and what is terrible, and then goes out undeterred to meet what is to come. So, I think, should we. Are you ready to go, Simon?

That Hegel bloke was weird. I walked into the room one day and saw him standing on his head.

Smith and Keynes were hardly practitioners of economics, never mind great ones!

Westminster Council don't allow references to Carlyle, be careful.

[Resurrection Man]

... I take it, RM, you didn't enjoy the "benefits" of a public school education, like I, as one of the many varieties of human types you mention, did.

No I did not but I do know of others who , like you (I am assuming) did not like the experience.

[Resurrection Man]

Exactement! Don't get caught up with all this psychobabble stuff - Strut your Stuff and Grasp It

+1 Oh definitely + 1

Well said, Anna. We are what we are. We muddle along as best we can. Sometimes we help, sometimes we hinder. We make the best of our lot and are happy to do so.

[Serial_Apologist]

No I did not but I do know of others who , like you (I am assuming) did not like the experience.

The main point, RM, is that I saw the Thatcher Generation of leaders being formed.

[scottycelt]

It is not just on this forum where the capitalism v socialism war rages ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20921208

I suspect that M. Depardieu is very much the human reality when an individual's personal wealth is at stake. He/she may well give some of it away voluntarily but is rather less inclined for the state to take most it off them and then use for any old purpose. To be fair, I also suspect that this somewhat petulant spat may be as much about French politics as filthy lucre.

Bit of a 'rusky' move by Gerard, though, don't you think ... ?

[Mandryka]

It is not just on this forum where the capitalism v socialism war rages ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20921208

I suspect that M. Depardieu is very much the human reality when an individual's personal wealth is at stake. He/she may well give some of it away voluntarily but is rather less inclined for the state to take most it off them and then use for any old purpose. To be fair, I also suspect that this somewhat petulant spat may be as much about French politics as filthy lucre.

Bit of a 'rusky' move by Gerard, though, don't you think ... ?

This was all over the (local) news in Moscow last week.

I can't believe that the French Left suffers from such intellectual poverty as to fall back on punitive taxation of the kind that failed so comprehensively in Britain in the 70s (when it was pioneered by the odious 'Denis' Healey). The super-rich will always find a way to avoid the tax net, whilst successful grafters like Depardieu (who I don't think is any great shakes as an actor) will simply move abroad.

[kleines c]

c

[ardcarp]

the odious 'Denis' Healey

Have you got a thing about eyebrows, Mandryka?

[kleines c]

c

[MrGongGong]

Three cheers from kleines c (breakfast coffee)!

aaah but there's coffee and there's Coffee and we have discussed elsewhere

[kleines c]

c

[MrGongGong]

Well, I'll have whatever you're having then, MrGongGong! Thank you very much indeed.

Monsooned Malabar espresso it is then .........

[Resurrection Man]

hummm possibly

but

Those who seem to want to get young people to learn "financial planning" (who regularly appear on R4 , for example) seem hell bent on creating a world of dull , safe , "prudent" and "sensible" people with no soul, no passion and no imagination .....................

Sounds a bit like Socialism.

[MrGongGong]

Sounds a bit like Socialism.

That is a bit of a Conservative myth, the idea that somehow they are dynamic and imaginative .......... when the truth is somewhat different