Is true socialism possible?

[MrGongGong]

It leads me to my main "if I had Michael Gove's job" point. I would like to see lifestyle as a core curriculum subject. This could incorporate several matters that are taught elsewhere but the main emphasis would be in encouraging students to consider their lives in all its future stages. Making plans, causes and consequences, that kind of thing - money, health, activity, ageing, etc. This would fundamentally move the emphasis away from the here and now, youth culture, etc.

hummm possibly

but

Those who seem to want to get young people to learn "financial planning" (who regularly appear on R4 , for example) seem hell bent on creating a world of dull , safe , "prudent" and "sensible" people with no soul, no passion and no imagination .....................

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I am very much against the idea that because some parents can't say "no" to them eating entire bars of chocolate, we all must have smaller chocolate bars. It is like being ruled by the kindergarten. MPs should require more of parents and themselves.

I quite agree. Inadequate parenting is reaching epidemic proportions.

But as for eating whole bars of chocolate...

[MrGongGong]

I quite agree. Inadequate parenting is reaching epidemic proportions.

Some have even been known to leave their children in the pub by "mistake"

[teamsaint]

hummm possibly

but

Those who seem to want to get young people to learn "financial planning" (who regularly appear on R4 , for example) seem hell bent on creating a world of dull , safe , "prudent" and "sensible" people with no soul, no passion and no imagination .....................

and training them to be willing worker ants.

Here are some of my favourite lyrics, written by some Belfast teenagers 35 years ago.
Much of it applies in essence to too many kids today. And us.

http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/s/stiff_little_fingers/wasted_life.html

Edit : The lyrics probably off topic, but the world shouldn't be like this......

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

This leads me to my main "if I had Michael Gove's job" point. I would like to see lifestyle as a core curriculum subject. This could incorporate several matters that are taught elsewhere but the main emphasis would be on encouraging students to consider their lives in all their future stages. Making plans, causes and consequences, that kind of thing - money, health, activity, ageing, etc. This would fundamentally move the emphasis in society away from the here and now, youth culture, etc. whatever is in the media.

Sorry, but I don't like that idea at all. Who would decide on such a curriculum? Michael Gove of course, and he's a bumbling *****.
Citizenship lessons exist already, but all it does is to take responsibility away from parents.

[scottycelt]

Yet again, the Scots, bless 'em, have been aware of superior cereals for centuries, even though these were condemned as 'barbarian foods' by the invading Romans who swiftly discovered their energising properties as they were unceremoniously driven south ...

The healthiest breakfast cereal, of course, is porridge which doctors all over the world now recommend. Even Scots, however, may be disturbed to discover that a heavy sprinkling of salt is now greatly discouraged.

As a toddler I used to adore Farex and I'm delighted to see it is still available (at least Down Under) and is apparently considered thoroughly healthy guzzling as well.

http://www.farex.com.au/Products

[Serial_Apologist]

This leads me to my main "if I had Michael Gove's job" point. I would like to see lifestyle as a core curriculum subject. This could incorporate several matters that are taught elsewhere but the main emphasis would be in encouraging students to consider their lives in all its future stages. Making plans, causes and consequences, that kind of thing - money, health, activity, ageing, etc. This would fundamentally move the emphasis in society away from only the here and now, youth culture, etc. whatever is in the media.

Actually the phrase "here and now" has come in for a lot of stick in recent years, implying as it does people acting selfishly with no thought for the future. But when one comes to think about it, here and now ouight to be the best place to be; it's just that society is set up in such an insecure way as to make us all constantly anxious about what is to come, and whether or not our plans will meet any situation. Capitalism is so unstable that any future will always be in doubt as long as we labour (or not) under it - whereas mystics of all spiritual (and in dwindling cases religious) traditions lay great stress on the inner wherewithal to live comfortably but not excessively in the present. Nostalgia is very much based on looking back longingly on times when we were hopefully less burdened with such thoughts and could really live in the present; after all, there is no other time than now - even in thought! Maximising our own creativity, individually and collectively, as opposed to consuming what we are led to believe to be our fulfilments, would play a big part in worthwhile living in a socialist system, which is what this thread is about, and that non-exclusive synergistic creativity (the sum total being greater than its individual parts) would positively feed back into the decisionmaking process.

[Serial_Apologist]

hummm possibly

but

Those who seem to want to get young people to learn "financial planning" (who regularly appear on R4 , for example) seem hell bent on creating a world of dull , safe , "prudent" and "sensible" people with no soul, no passion and no imagination .....................

See?

[teamsaint]

Actually the phrase "here and now" has come in for a lot of stick in recent years, implying as it does people acting selfishly with no thought for the future. But when one comes to think about it, here and now ouight to be the best place to be; it's just that society is set up in such an insecure way as to make us all constantly anxious about what is to come, and whether or not our plans will meet any situation. Capitalism is so unstable that any future will always be in doubt as long as we labour (or not) under it - whereas mystics of all spiritual (and in dwindling cases religious) traditions lay great stress on the inner wherewithal to live comfortably but not excessively in the present. Nostalgia is very much based on looking back longingly on times when we were hopefully less burdened with such thoughts and could really live in the present; after all, there is no other time than now - even in thought! Maximising our own creativity, individually and collectively, as opposed to consuming what we are led to believe to be our fulfilments, would play a big part in worthwhile living in a socialist system, which is what this thread is about, and that non-exclusive synergistic creativity (the sum total being greater than its individual parts) would positively feed back into the decisionmaking process.

Wise words, S-A.That stuff needs a lot of working at, but it has to be the way to progress.
Some people think this is very useful.(I haven't read it, BTW).

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Now-Guide-Spiritual-Enlightenment/dp/0340733500

[ahinton]

Some have even been known to leave their children in the pub by "mistake"

To be fair, I don't think that the ever-delightful Samantha's made a habit of this...

Anyway, to return to the subject, one of the problems with "socialism" - "true" or otherwise - is that it is yet another "ism" such as we have in music with neo-classicism, serialism, complexicism, minimalism and even (as I once ruefully remarked in the company of a group of my compatriots) Erik Chisholm...

[Anna]

This leads me to my main "if I had Michael Gove's job" point. I would like to see lifestyle as a core curriculum subject. This could incorporate several matters that are taught elsewhere but the main emphasis would be on encouraging students to consider their lives in all their future stages. Making plans, causes and consequences, that kind of thing - money, health, activity, ageing, etc. This would fundamentally move the emphasis in society away from the here and now, youth culture, etc. whatever is in the media.

Actually Lat, I disagree. There is so much moaning about teachers and children they teach turning out badly, not being able to read, write, tie their own shoelaces, still being in nappies in first year. It's all down to the parents, they are the ones who should teach their children to read and write before they start school, teach them how to yield a knife and fork, teach them manners. School teachers are only there to educate them in other matters history, geography, languages, science etc., Not Lifestyle, they should take that in with their mother's milk. Hollow Ho, Ho, Ho, of course I am joking.

[ardcarp]

Teamsaint. I watched the clip of Ken Robinson which you recommended thus:

I am not the expert...but I know a few, and this guy is the tops !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9LelXa3U_I

He doesn't believe in competitive education.But our kids would thrive with him in charge.

He's an amusing, entertaining speaker; a literate, highly educated fellow, speaking to a literate, highly educated audience. His little quips would have fallen flat in a Liverpool Working Men's Club. I mention Liverpool, because he claims a working class Liverpool background. Dig a little deeper, however and you will find that he attended a GRAMMAR SCHOOL, the route by which many escaped the boring, repetitive working life which KR makes great play of in his talk.

The educational revolution of which he speaks (each child having a programme tailored to its need and carried out at home or among friends if they like) is pure Rousseau-esque fantasy. So, Ken, we close down all the schools, sack all the teachers and start afresh.

How?

[Serial_Apologist]

Wise words, S-A.That stuff needs a lot of working at, but it has to be the way to progress.
Some people think this is very useful.(I haven't read it, BTW).
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Now-Gu.../dp/0340733500

Phew - thanks for replying, TS; my problem is being a slow typer with too much to say!

Looked at that way it appears a self-centred proposition; Meister Eckhard was much admired by John Cage btw. The problem is that New Ageism was bound to become just another business opportunity for them wot could afford. The socialists of old always underpinned their utopian visions questioning of received ideas about Human Nature. 60s alternative culture saw the links between inner and outer as expressed through capitalism as just one possibility; it was alway regrettable that the interdependence of the spiritual and material got ditched in the wake of the state violence inflicted on the Yippies in America, who had some interesting ideas about co-operative living. If you raised "the spiritual", even in metaphorical terms in discussions on the left in the 1970s, when I was active, you were virtually automatically branded a petty bourgeois individualist, if not worse!

[Lateralthinking1]

Mr GG, Anna, Eine and Serial_Apologist

I have the vision thing on this!

My idea is that students would be taught to see their current age not as their age but as one of their ages. A 17 year old is also a 25 year old, a 40 year old and an 80 old person. He or she just hasn't got there yet. The new mindset would not diminish the spirit of youth - that always exists and is also reinforced both by peers and the media - but it would remove the heavy emphasis on older generations being "a different race". The generational divide as generally perceived is an artificial separation from selves.

This change in mindset would prepare people better for life, it would present all stages of life as positive, it would in time reduce the regrettable tendency of young decision makers to kick matters into the long grass, and it might increase respect if not on its own merits then out of self-interest. In other words, respect would emanate in many from a greater identification with all others.

I don't think that there are risks of turning people into monochrome robots as long as you start with one important word on the piece of paper - "choice". This is a far better way than allowing everyone liberally to stumble from one calamity to the next while simultaneously dictating or nudging with a rod of iron what adults can do from the moment they wake up to the time they sleep.

This leaves the job of addressing the present day to the parents. They do the "this is what we require of you now". The school does it only to the extent that it enables it to function and discusses practical, physical and emotional changes at later ages, practical options, decisions, plans, etc. And, yes, I would include money there too because every one of us was forced to walk naively into a jungle. It was quite ridiculous to be left at 30 and with a degree needing to ask someone how a mortgage worked.

[teamsaint]

Teamsaint. I watched the clip of Ken Robinson which you recommended thus:



He's an amusing, entertaining speaker; a literate, highly educated fellow, speaking to a literate, highly educated audience. His little quips would have fallen flat in a Liverpool Working Men's Club. I mention Liverpool, because he claims a working class Liverpool background. Dig a little deeper, however and you will find that he attended a GRAMMAR SCHOOL, the route by which many escaped the boring, repetitive working life which KR makes great play of in his talk.

The educational revolution of which he speaks (each child having a programme tailored to its need and carried out at home or among friends if they like) is pure Rousseau-esque fantasy. So, Ken, we close down all the schools, sack all the teachers and start afresh.

How?

Ardcarp, just to be clear,I am not a professional educator. Nothing I have ever seen KR say has ever suggested getting rid of teachers. I don't see why a thoroughly, genuinely child centred system would imply this, or is necessarily a fantasy.
Grammar schools were great for some people. (and helped produce a short era where our top politicians were state educated). I genuinely don't know about KR's working class credentials, but i think his message addresses much that is wrong in our education system. He seems to me to be asking questions about what ,and the way in which children learn , that get to the heart of the failings that there are in our systems.