Is true socialism possible?

[Flosshilde]

The government still controls and decides what happens within the NHS. The real political debate is about 'contracting out' some services to the private sector

A private company takes over GP provision within a certain area. They then decide that they can't make enough money (ie a profit) from it & close the surgery/ies. So who has control over GP provision in that area - the government, the NHS, the patients or the private company?

The government started ceding control over the NHS when trusts were set up. Fortunately in Scotland we still have an NHS managed by area health boards.

[scottycelt]

A good idea, distorted by the media who brought private muzak-infested gymnasiums into the equasion. Personally, I'd start with mobility scooters, banning them unless they were deemed necessary by GPs. Then we wouldn't those obese riders zooming dangerously along the pavement in Scarborough, Bridlington, Worthing, etc., complete with obese dogs sitting in their baskets.

Well, yes, why should these noisy, smelly gymnasiums come into the equation at all? People can exercise at home well enough without them, and, in any case, how can a council monitor how much exercise an individual does? You could easily attend an hour at the gymnasium sitting on your fat bottom and exercising your fingers by way of the Coca-Cola and Mars Bar machines.

Maybe we should simply return to the good old days and re-introduce post-war food rationing for everyone? And, while we're at it, National Service for any obese aged 18-40?

That wouldn't half sort the fat buggers out.

[scottycelt]

A private company takes over GP provision within a certain area. They then decide that they can't make enough money (ie a profit) from it & close the surgery/ies. So who has control over GP provision in that area - the government, the NHS, the patients or the private company?

The government started ceding control over the NHS when trusts were set up. Fortunately in Scotland we still have an NHS managed by area health boards.

Well certainly not the patients ... when did they ever have any say in such matters?

If the NHS/Government contracts out a private company to provide services in a certain area that company has no power other than to provide those services at the agreed terms. If it subsequently cannot or is unwilling to carry them out it is the NHS/Government responsibility to find an alternative.

It must also be remembered that private facilities can be (and have been) called upon by the NHS when otherwise it would have been unable to cope.

I don't see much wrong with that and it is certainly not 'privatisation' in the sense that some try and make out.

[Flosshilde]

If the NHS/Government contracts out a private company to provide services in a certain area that company has no power other than to provide those services at the agreed terms. If it subsequently cannot or is unwilling to carry them out it is the NHS/Government responsibility to find an alternative.

The GP services were being provided perfectly adequately & to the patients' satisfaction previously - now they have no service.

It must also be remembered that private facilities can (and have been) called upon by the NHS when otherwise it would have been unable to cope.

Where & what? there were some eye clinics provided privately. In Oxford the Trust didn't want it, but were forced to by the Government. They then had to pay for a specific number of procedures, whether they were carried out or not.

A friend had a knee operation done by one of the private clinics - it didn't work, & the people who'd done it had all disappeared back to South Africa etc (they were only on 6 month contracts). The local NHS hospital had to deal with the aftermath.

it is certainly not 'privatisation' in the sense that some try and make out

It's privatisation if a private company is providing services formerly provided by the NHS, & making a profit out of it. That profit comes from money that would have been used to provide services. It comes from the taxes we pay. I don't want my tax to go into a profiteer's pocket.

[Resurrection Man]

The GPs will prescribe an exercise regime that may include gym attendance. The NHS generally does not run gymnasia so the 'treatment' will need to be bought in from the private sctor. The gym will be expected to grass, I'm sorry, report back on the patient's attendance & progress to the GP. A sanction of non-attendance will be the removal of benefits by DWP presumably. I don't know currently of any information-sharing bewtween GPs and DWP.

What's an interesting concept?

Well, it makes sense to me to outsource something like the gym..it's there, facilities and all. As it doesn't exist in the NHS then outsourcing it is hardly privatising it.

The interesting concept is what Westminster are proposing. I am having an internal debate with myself because I do have an 'issue' with people stuffing their fat faces with calories. There is one school of thought that the reason why people stuff themselves silly is that they lack self-esteem and making themselves 'bigger' compensates for this (in their own mind). I am sure that there are also other reasons for over-eating that some form of counselling etc could help. And there are some metabolic feedback mechanisms that are faulty in some cases. And I have sympathy for these people.

But equally there are a hell of a lot of fat lardarses wallowing their way down the High Street. (I wish that the airlines weighed passengers plus luggage). It is solely down to them stuffing themselves. No-one force fed them. So why then should the NHS pick up the additional burden? But then I broaden the internal discussion..where does it stop? Smokers ? Have an accident as a result of getting drunk? Clearly this is not a direction any of us would want to go down and so, my heart says 'Go for it Westminster' but my head says that it is so wrong. There you go. Cards on the table. Now must get off to the gym.

[Resurrection Man]

......
A friend had a knee operation done by one of the private clinics - it didn't work, & the people who'd done it had all disappeared back to South Africa etc (they were only on 6 month contracts). The local NHS hospital had to deal with the aftermath.
.....

But equally one could argue that the NHS being strapped for internal resource then used the private sector. Now there is a long term argument for how the NHS is funded but while that is being sorted out, what would you rather have? An ever increasing waiting list or getting people to have the operation that they need? I am sorry that your friend's op didn't go well but equally there will be many many more patients for whom having their operation successfully done by it being outsourced are very grateful.

[ahinton]

A friend had a knee operation done by one of the private clinics - it didn't work, & the people who'd done it had all disappeared back to South Africa etc (they were only on 6 month contracts). The local NHS hospital had to deal with the aftermath.

I am sorry to hear of your friend's experience but in theory it could quite as easily have been the other way around.

It's privatisation if a private company is providing services formerly provided by the NHS, & making a profit out of it. That profit comes from money that would have been used to provide services. It comes from the taxes we pay. I don't want my tax to go into a profiteer's pocket.

OK, but what difference does that make to the principles involved when some private companies provide services that have never been provided by NHS?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There is one school of thought that the reason why people stuff themselves silly is that they lack self-esteem and making themselves 'bigger' compensates for this (in their own mind). I am sure that there are also other reasons for over-eating that some form of counselling etc could help. And there are some metabolic feedback mechanisms that are faulty in some cases. And I have sympathy for these people.

But equally there are a hell of a lot of fat lardarses wallowing their way down the High Street. (I wish that the airlines weighed passengers plus luggage). It is solely down to them stuffing themselves. No-one force fed them. So why then should the NHS pick up the additional burden?

The point is that obesity is on the increase. People who are too lazy to walk are on the increase. But why go the gym when you can do real exercise, like walking up a mountain, rowing on a lake, doing a forest walk, or countless other things in the fresh air? Not the smelly, sweaty commercial gym, where you have to pay to run on a treadmill, instead of running outdoors for nothing. It's crazy.

[Beef Oven]

I am sorry to hear of your friend's experience but in theory it could quite as easily have been the other way around.


OK, but what difference does that make to the principles involved when some private companies provide services that have never been provided by NHS?

Privatisation of small, almost unnoticeable parts of the NHS can improve health outcomes.

[Flosshilde]

I am sorry to hear of your friend's experience but in theory it could quite as easily have been the other way around.

No it couldn't. The private clinics provided the procedures, not the aftercare. If the operation had been done by the NHS hospital the aftercare would have been provided by the same team that carried out the original operation; they would know the patient, know what had been done previously.

OK, but what difference does that make to the principles involved when some private companies provide services that have never been provided by NHS?

What services are you thinking of? I can't think of any.


(At the beginning of the thread Simon - or Mr Pee? - commented on childish responses. Post no.84 is a good example of one - as are most posts from BO)

[MrGongGong]

Privatisation of small, almost unnoticeable parts of the NHS can improve health outcomes.

Getting rid of this sham government would improve mental health outcomes
it's very easy to point to fat people on the street
but wellbeing is never considered by our politicians who only seem to be able to think in one sad way ........

[scottycelt]

The GP services were being provided perfectly adequately & to the patients' satisfaction previously - now they have no service.

Well surely if there is no GP service that is a NHS/Government responsibility ... ?

Where & what? there were some eye clinics provided privately. In Oxford the Trust didn't want it, but were forced to by the Government. They then had to pay for a specific number of procedures, whether they were carried out or not.

A friend had a knee operation done by one of the private clinics - it didn't work, & the people who'd done it had all disappeared back to South Africa etc (they were only on 6 month contracts). The local NHS hospital had to deal with the aftermath.

From the forum bible, Flossie ... http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...tor-increasing

It's privatisation if a private company is providing services formerly provided by the NHS, & making a profit out of it. That profit comes from money that would have been used to provide services. It comes from the taxes we pay. I don't want my tax to go into a profiteer's pocket.

The point is if it provides a service the NHS can't, why not? Would you prefer not to receive the services instead?

However, the off-topic has now become very much the on-topic and this might be very irritating to some ...

[Lateralthinking1]

From my experience, mixing the NHS and the goom-nazium is not a good idea. I had one year at a gym. 2006. I attended 13 times. On the first day, I was told to see a trainer. He seemed unable to answer questions. I assumed from his grunting that becoming Charles Atlas had been compensation for communication difficulties. But it turned out that he was entirely capable of speaking English. This became clear when he discovered that my blood pressure was "very high". What followed was a diatribe about it being my fault. I should have gone to the gym since learning how to walk. Not convinced by his professionalism, or the monitor, I went immediately to my GP. A proper machine there showed that I was at the high end of normal which is as I have always been.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Getting rid of this sham government would improve mental health outcomes
it's very easy to point to fat people on the street
but wellbeing is never considered by our politicians who only seem to be able to think in one sad way ........

I tend to agree with you, though individual should still accept much of the responsibility for their weight problems.

[MrGongGong]

I tend to agree with you, though individual should still accept much of the responsibility for their weight problems.

Eric



















Pickles ....................