Is true socialism possible?

[Serial_Apologist]

the Jewish network

These three words in the OP have thus far been overlooked - would Simon like to explain their meaning?

[Beef Oven]

These three words in the OP have thus far been overlooked - would Simon like to explain their meaning?

Here we go! For four candles' sake pack it in!!!!!!!!!!!

[teamsaint]

Simon, you are working very hard in your thread for very little return. Most responders seem concerned only to question the validity or the wording of the original question. So where is the defence of even workaday socialism, let alone its apotheosis?

Capitalism, in giving free rein to human enterprise, is of course a potential nursery of gross inequality. But (it seems to me) socialism repudiates human nature, relying on the fantasy of a large-scale co-operative or the imposition of shackles (or low rewards) on high-fliers. Does it depend on state micro-management in all areas? I do hope some high-minded member of this forum will explain how it can best be put into practice for those of us with doubts.

The NHS is indeed a wonderful realisation of a socialist ideal, but it is bleeding the wealth-creators dry: modern medicine can work miracles, but it exacts a high price for its research, technology, and manpower. In a perfect world, how would the full-blooded socialists look to finance its ever-increasing demands?

Just to follow up a couple of things here. There seems to be an unwritten and accepted assumption that the health service is subject to ever increasing demands.if so, why? increased population means increased numbers of taxpayers. Preventative health care ought to be helping considerably in combating the demands of an ageing population. Where is the money going? The drugs companies take a huge slice. Bureaucracy costs in the pre internal maket days , historically were around 5/6%. Today they are much higher.

I would agree that (socialist style) micromanagement of the economy is fraught with risks, but equally, an assumption that competition is our basic driver, and will solve all, is fundamentally flawed, IMO.
Most business activity in my experience is to do with how people cooperate to make their own business work better. It is possible to build a properly functioning society where cooperation , not competition,is the principle driver.

[Beef Oven]

Just to follow up a couple of things here. There seems to be an unwritten and accepted assumption that the health service is subject to ever increasing demands.if so, why? increased population means increased numbers of taxpayers. Preventative health care ought to be helping considerably in combating the demands of an ageing population. Where is the money going? The drugs companies take a huge slice. Bureaucracy costs in the pre internal maket days , historically were around 5/6%. Today they are much higher.

I would agree that (socialist style) micromanagement of the economy is fraught with risks, but equally, an assumption that competition is our basic driver, and will solve all, is fundamentally flawed, IMO.
Most business activity in my experience is to do with how people cooperate to make their own business work better. It is possible to build a properly functioning society where cooperation , not competition,is the principle driver.

Gone full-circle. Your last sentance is a call for vanguard socialim. And, how come your team is now wearing a full RED strip!? Get them stripes back!

[teamsaint]

Gone full-circle. Your last sentance is a call for vanguard socialim. And, how come your team is now wearing a full RED strip!? Get them stripes back!

We are now owned by an anarcho syndicalist commune, hence the strip. Plus we traded the strip with a chinese workers collective.
The fans collective group is working in a cooperative way with fellow international workers to create a politically correct striped version for 2013/14.

As for your point about about vanguard socialism.....rubbish. The nonsense western economy that pretends to be free market capitalism has as little to do with competition (check out the trains) as what I said has to do with Marxist theory. I think.

[Serial_Apologist]

I would agree that (socialist style) micromanagement of the economy is fraught with risks, but equally, an assumption that competition is our basic driver, and will solve all, is fundamentally flawed, IMO.
Most business activity in my experience is to do with how people cooperate to make their own business work better. It is possible to build a properly functioning society where cooperation , not competition,is the principle driver.

Precisely. Historically it's no coincidence that capitalism got its biggest thrust forward in countries culturally weaned on the Christian ethic of innate human greed and indolence, only finally expiated by grace of God in the hereafter, with competition supposedly the only self-regulating palliative for our collective fallenness. (As an aside we also shouldn't forget our separateness from God - for which read the natural order - offering an additional excuse for Those In Possession Of The Truth trampling all over those of other beliefs ***incidentally*** filling the coffers of the former group while unbalancing the natural order and endlessly depleting its natural resources in wasteful ways). Euphemisms commonly used in self-justified hostility to alternatives include "social engineering", which is, of course, far from what marketing is all about.

PS - still no reply to my question regarding the OP.

[Beef Oven]

Precisely. Historically it's no coincidence that capitalism got its biggest thrust forward in countries culturally weaned on the Christian ethic of innate human greed and indolence, only finally expiated by grace of God in the hereafter, with competition supposedly the only self-regulating palliative for our collective fallenness. (As an aside we also shouldn't forget our separateness from God - for which read the natural order - offering an additional excuse for Those In Possession Of The Truth trampling all over those of other beliefs ***incidentally*** filling the coffers of the former group while unbalancing the natural order and endlessly depleting its natural resources in wasteful ways). Euphemisms commonly used in self-justified hostility to alternatives include "social engineering", which is, of course, far from what marketing is all about.

PS - still no reply to my question regarding the OP.

You've missd the most important issue - what about that kit?

[Beef Oven]

We are now owned by an anarcho syndicalist commune, hence the strip. Plus we traded the strip with a chinese workers collective.
The fans collective group is working in a cooperative way with fellow international workers to create a politically correct striped version for 2013/14.

As for your point about about vanguard socialism.....rubbish. The nonsense western economy that pretends to be free market capitalism has as little to do with competition (check out the trains) as what I said has to do with Marxist theory. I think.

Rubbish? how very dare you? And btw, I do not believe that we have a sensible free-market economy and I agree with you on that. Hopefully UKIP will get a say in the government of this land before too long and we'll get a taste of good ol' free-market capitalism and an end to obese, Iphone5 carrying children in poverty

P.S. I am gonna talk to T.L. Paine M.B.E. regarding that kit. That'll get something going.

[teamsaint]

Rubbish? how very dare you? And btw, I do not believe that we have a sensible free-market economy and I agree with you on that. Hopefully UKIP will get a say in the government of this land before too long and we'll get a taste of good ol' free-market capitalism and an end to obese, Iphone5 carrying children in poverty

P.S. I am gonna talk to T.L. Paine M.B.E. regarding that kit. That'll get something going.

I think you will find that is Sir Terence of Paine, MBE and Honorary club president, if its all the same to you.

And all red is crap.

Remind when when this "good ol free market capitalism" was so successful in creating a fully functioning, fair and productive society, if its not too late !

[Beef Oven]

I think you will find that is Sir Terence of Paine, MBE and Honorary club president, if its all the same to you.

And all red is crap.

Remind when when this "good ol free market capitalism" was so successful in creating a fully functioning, fair and productive society, if its not too late !

It's coming to a town near you - watch this space thru 2013/14

[gurnemanz]

East German joke I heard in the Seventies:
Q Was ist schön und was ist Scheiße?
A Schön, dass es den Sozialismus gibt. Scheiße, dass es den hier gibt.

(What is nice and what ist s***?
Nice that socialism exists. S*** that it exists here.)

[ardcarp]

Decantor wrote:

The NHS is indeed a wonderful realisation of a socialist ideal, but it is bleeding the wealth-creators dry: modern medicine can work miracles, but it exacts a high price for its research, technology, and manpower. In a perfect world, how would the full-blooded socialists look to finance its ever-increasing demands?

I am no Marxist, but I must point out that Karl was very focused on production and the means of production. So in his ideal state, funding a social health care system would not be a problem.

Marxism is based on a materialist understanding of societal development, taking at its starting point the necessary economic activities required by human society to provide for its material needs. The form of economic organization, or mode of production, is understood to be the basis from which the majority of other social phenomena — including social relations, political and legal systems, morality and ideology — arise (or at the least by which they are greatly influenced). These social relations form the superstructure, for which the economic system forms the base. As the forces of production (most notably technology) improve, existing forms of social organization become inefficient and stifle further progress. These inefficiencies manifest themselves as social contradictions in the form of class struggle. According to Marxist analysis, class conflict within capitalism arises due to intensifying contradictions between highly-productive mechanized and socialized production performed by the proletariat, and private ownership and private appropriation of the surplus product in the form of surplus value (profit) by a small minority of private owners called the bourgeoisie. As the contradiction becomes apparent to the proletariat, social unrest between the two antagonistic classes intensifies, culminating in a social revolution. The eventual long-term outcome of this revolution would be the establishment of socialism - a socioeconomic system based on cooperative ownership of the means of production, distribution based on one's contribution, and production organized directly for use. Karl Marx hypothesized that, as the productive forces and technology continued to advance, socialism would eventually give way to a communist stage of social development. Communism would be a classless, stateless, moneyless society based on common ownership and the principle of "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".

[Plagiarised from Wiki]

Readers of the above (if they haven't fallen asleep) will be thinking 'Animal Farm', and musing on the greed and corruption hard-wired into homo sapiens (or in Orwell's case, pigs).

What bothers me in such debates (and I'm a bear of very little brain) is that a CAPITALIST state which exhibits greed, corruption and inequality is never accused of hypocrisy, whereas a SOCIALIST state which exhibits greed, corruption and inequality is always accused of hypocrisy.

Can someone explain please?

[ardcarp]

Q Was ist schön und was ist Scheiße?
A Schön, dass es den Sozialismus gibt. Scheiße, dass es den hier gibt.

[Beef Oven]

Q Was ist schön und was ist Scheiße?
A Schön, dass es den Sozialismus gibt. Scheiße, dass es den hier gibt.

And this from the most modern of all communist states!!!!

[Flosshilde]

But what does "having an agenda" mean? If you dismiss everything and everyone who "has an agenda" then you will never read/listen to anyone. Everyone, when making any point, has an agenda, whether it's to sell something, promote an idea, gain a benefit, or whatever. I do, you do, th PM does, the Chief Rabbi does, Simon Rattle does.

Indeed, & as I said it's quite clear what that particular organisaton's agenda is - a rather McCarthyist 'reds under the beds' fear of socialism. The fear that means that the USA has tried to interfere with any state that is, in their eyes, socialist

So the fact that something/someone simply has an agenda, is, if I may suggest it, irrelevant. You may not agree with what you perceive as that agenda, but that's fine.

Gee, thank you kindly.