Is true socialism possible?

[Lateralthinking1]

Lat surely.......hasn't bought the global warming myth

I'm not a gambler. Having said as much, I don't see why non-believers even bother to argue their case. It is very obvious that international leaders only know how to fly round the world chattering about their concern or posing for cameras in the arctic.

Some of them are so hopeless they should give up the climate change "work" to spend more time protecting the environment.

On the SLIH clip, Katherine Jenkins looks good in photos. But I happened to see her rendition of "Santa Baby" when I was with relatives. She is so devoid of any charisma/sensuality that not only was it an insult to Marilyn Monroe but also Eartha Kitt.

[Beef Oven]

Caused by man, Beef Oven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_i...he_environment

I was happy in my ignorance

[Resurrection Man]

..... Socialism, by contrast, remains festering in the dustbin of history.

So true..so true. Sadly Citizen Smith remains alive and well and still as deluded.

[Lateralthinking1]

The jury is out on whether capitalism is an effective competitor with other systems. Rather like communism, it has never been attempted in an undiluted form. What it has had generally is the protection of social democratic armour. Without it, it probably would not have survived. I suspect that in its purest form, it would be toppled fairly quickly, either by a rampaging public with no interest in political theory or in many places Islamic fundamentalism. Pure anything of a political kind would take us back centuries.

Man might be naturally competitive but the trait is probably exaggerated in competitive systems. Given that the current system is very competitive and many folk are not at each others' throats all the time, man might not be as instinctively competitive as some imply. People vary in terms of attacking and defending. Some will have everything they need and be prepared to go to war for more. Others may have little and be more or less satisfied with their lot, only roused in the event of unprovoked attacks on them.

Initially I looked at the suggestion that capitalism had never been more popular with utter amazement. However, some facts could be put forward to support it, even if only based on numbers internationally. Much of the popularity that exists depends on people having nothing to lose or only seeing the good aspects or never having the experience of something better with which to compare. That the vast global crusade has only had limited success presumably should inform us that the instinct of many is to have doubts.

[MrGongGong]

OK, so can you point me to any SUCCESSFUL socialist governments? -

That's the wrong question entirely
and just reinforces the idea that there are ONLY two ways of doing things which is the myth that politicians of all hues want us to believe
it's not a case of Socialism OR Capitalism

have you never read "Gertie and Gus" ?

the other thing that seems obvious to me is that some of the things that capitalist societies rate very highly depend on most people having enough food, clothes and shelter (From the "mighty dub syndicate" in Beefspeak ....... whatever happened to Gary Clail ?)......

the idea that somehow before the Russian revolution everything was great for the poorest in society is a bit of a myth

when I went to Romania just after the end of the rule of Ceausescu what was evident was that even though his regime was universally hated, for those at the poorest end of society the future was very bleak indeed , whereas for those who were young, had language skills and could haggle the future was very bright.
Painting a picture of a choice between two equally flawed ideas is daft.......


It is also a question of whether one thinks that something is universally applicable .........

To state as a "fact" the people are "competitive" flies in the face of much experience that seems to suggest that we are much more collaborative in nature.

[ardcarp]

With your permission, I shall add #9 to my list of supermodels.

I am flattered.

[teamsaint]

That's the wrong question entirely
and just reinforces the idea that there are ONLY two ways of doing things which is the myth that politicians of all hues want us to believe
it's not a case of Socialism OR Capitalism

have you never read "Gertie and Gus" ?

the other thing that seems obvious to me is that some of the things that capitalist societies rate very highly depend on most people having enough food, clothes and shelter (From the "mighty dub syndicate" in Beefspeak ....... whatever happened to Gary Clail ?)......

the idea that somehow before the Russian revolution everything was great for the poorest in society is a bit of a myth

when I went to Romania just after the end of the rule of Ceausescu what was evident was that even though his regime was universally hated, for those at the poorest end of society the future was very bleak indeed , whereas for those who were young, had language skills and could haggle the future was very bright.
Painting a picture of a choice between two equally flawed ideas is daft.......


It is also a question of whether one thinks that something is universally applicable .........

To state as a "fact" the people are "competitive" flies in the face of much experience that seems to suggest that we are much more collaborative in nature.

THis is central to this kind of discussion. Competitiveness has been elevated as a virtue, and part of our make up, to an absurd degree.
The Western economic model is , for a huge chunk of our population, including the stressed out middle, a calamity.
It is a model maintained by ruthless propaganda by a hopelessly centralised media(who trade almost exclusively on fear)and a compliant top 10% who do very nicely.
Edit: and control and manipulation of the education system is also vital.

[MrGongGong]

[/B]

THis is central to this kind of discussion. Competitiveness has been elevated as a virtue, and part of our make up, to an absurd degree.
The Western economic model is , for a huge chunk of our population, including the stressed out middle, a calamity.
It is a model maintained by ruthless propaganda by a hopelessly centralised media(who trade almost exclusively on fear)and a compliant top 10% who do very nicely.
Edit: and control and manipulation of the education system is also vital.

absolutely

I think (following on from listening to some of the Bragg fest on R4) that there's a lot of misunderstanding of evolutionary science in the idea that somehow "competition" is somehow in "our nature" ........ I can enjoy playing cricket BUT that doesn't mean that in the rest of my life as a musician I am wanting to eliminate ALL other music from the world so only mine survives !

[Lateralthinking1]

Another point is that individual accumulation of wealth via capitalism leads to inheritance. Inheritance doesn't lead to economic competitiveness. It just leads to wanting to sit in Parliament as the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister or the Chancellor.

One test of the "man is a competitive animal" theory is this: "would all political candidates choose a marginal or a safe seat?"
Another is "would you prefer to be given a job of Chief Executive or have to sit an interview along with outstanding candidates?"

A third is "would a footballer turn down the offer to play for a Premiership club on the grounds that he must compete in the lower ranks first?". The more I think of it, the more I think it is complete rubbish. Man is instinctively a reclining on the settee animal.

[teamsaint]

the excellent posts #158 and #159 should be merged into a super post !

These days, it is socialism for the rich, and (an extreme) Neo -con capitalism for the poor.

[Resurrection Man]

[/B]

THis is central to this kind of discussion. Competitiveness has been elevated as a virtue, and part of our make up, to an absurd degree.
The Western economic model is , for a huge chunk of our population, including the stressed out middle, a calamity.
It is a model maintained by ruthless propaganda by a hopelessly centralised media(who trade almost exclusively on fear)and a compliant top 10% who do very nicely.
Edit: and control and manipulation of the education system is also vital.

What do you propose to replace it with, ts? Are you saying that competitiveness is a bad thing

[Resurrection Man]

Another point is that individual accumulation of wealth via capitalism leads to inheritance. Inheritance doesn't lead to economic competitiveness. It leads to wanting just to sit in Parliament as the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister or the Chancellor.

One test of the "man is a competitive animal" theory is this: "would all political candidates choose a marginal or a safe seat?"
Another is "would you prefer to be given a job of Chief Executive or have to sit an interview along with outstanding candidates?"

A third is "would a footballer turn down the offer to play for a Premiership club on the grounds that he must compete in the lower ranks first?". The more I think of it, the more I think it is complete rubbish. Man is instinctively a reclining on the settee animal.

LOL, Lat...as I was replying to your original two sentence post ...to say that I thought that man was actually lazy, I got terribly confused at this end as the Quick Reply box had THREE sentences from you...the last of which was saying exactly what I was about to type! Between me hitting the Quote button and it appearing in my QR box, you'd gone in and edited it!!

[Lateralthinking1]

LOL, Lat...as I was replying to your original two sentence post ...to say that I thought that man was actually lazy, I got terribly confused at this end as the Quick Reply box had THREE sentences from you...the last of which was saying exactly what I was about to type! Between me hitting the Quote button and it appearing in my QR box, you'd gone in and edited it!!

[teamsaint]

What do you propose to replace it with, ts? Are you saying that competitiveness is a bad thing

I suspect that competitiveness IS part of our make up, and may be something that helps various types of development.
The balance is hopelessly wrong though. Co operative effort is, in my experience (25 years working and selling for British Businesses) the main driver for business success. Without some element of competition, there may well, it is true. be a tendency towards inefficiencies
The real problems are manifold but 2 are :
1.Competition in many areas of business (and Economic life) is something of a myth. We have absurd structures that frequently allow big capital to drain cash from the public sector, for instance , in things like subsidies, whilst there is little real competiton beyond dubious contract awarding procedures.
2. Competition has become a mantra , in areas of life where it has no place whatsoever.Education is an easy example.

Humans are essentially cooperative beings. Look around you. Every moment of every day, we depend on our cooperative efforts. The moments when we start competing are all too often the bad moments.

[MrGongGong]

Humans are essentially cooperative beings. Look around you. Every moment of every day, we depend on our cooperative efforts. The moments when we start competing are all too often the bad moments.