Is Mr. Bennett Right About Somthing

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

".....it is Barbirolli who touches the heart and serves the music, unlike Sargent who merely presents it".?

Which character says this and in what context, my Lord Wear and Tear? And in what repertoire could any character make any direct comparison between the two?

[antongould]

Which character says this and in what context, my Lord Wear and Tear? And in what repertoire could any character make any direct comparison between the two?

Ah there you have me Lord Ferns - I read it in today's Grauniad in a short but reasonably glowing review of his latest couple of shortish plays. The quote caught my eye and I thought it might generate a good discussion which I feel it has. As to whether it is his own view - I would say possibly as he does occasionally express firm views on music and is of course a great fan of CFM.

[Ferretfancy]

Of all the versions I know, Sargent's EMI recording of The Planets captures the music's strangeness better than any.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I never heard either conductor Live, so I can only comment on their recordings - and there's so little they both recorded: Elgar (Gerontius, Enigma) and Sibelius (the 1st, 2nd & 5th Symphonies) are the only works common to both that I know. In all cases, I prefer Barbirolli; but Sargent's recordings always surprise me in being much better (more involved, with greater gusto and commitment) than I "remember" them - and far better than the workaday "play-throughs" that Bennett's character implies with the phrase "merely presents" the Music.

This is why I asked my previous question about the context of the quotation: I was taught never to ascribe the opinions of a fictional character to the character's author. It may be that Bennett wishes to make that character's seemingly-erudite superficiality clear to the audience. Or, of course, the character may be praising Sargent at Barbirolli's expense; suggesting that s/he thinks that Sargent allows the Music to speak for itself rather than the "emotional interventionist" attitude of Barbirolli.

In other words, from Bennett's point of view, the quotation isn't a comment on the two conductors or even on Music itself, but on the character who speaks it.

[Hornspieler]

I remember those; it was Schnabel, not Sargent, with whom I had a real problem there - a tiresome and often quite sloppy pianist and the adulation heaped upon him has always been as much of a matter of puzzlement for me as has the relative sidelining of him as a composer - and he was a far better composer than he was a pianist, IMHO.

Whilst that is undoubtedly true, I'd not regard it as a virtue...
...

Moisevitch, Iturbi, Malcuszinsky, Schnabel. They all went on far beyond their sell-by dates, relying on their reputations rather than their performances. I recall hearing a concerto (I think it was Tchaikovsky Nº 1) played by Artur Schnabel and remarking that it sounded as if he was wearing boxing gloves! The arrival on the scene of such as Julius Katchen and Emil Gilels brought in a new standard of performance and our own native soloists, such as Peter Katin, John Ogden, John Lill, Stephen Bishop were the forerunners of piano playing excellence in this country. (and don't forget the ladies - Myra Hess, Moura Lympany, Valerie Tryon, Nina Milkina)

As for Schnabel's compositions, nothing is heard of them these days which is evidence in itself. I wonder if our friend Roehr has any recordings of Schnabel's "ouvre"?

HS

[rauschwerk]

Moisevitch, Iturbi, Malcuszinsky, Schnabel. They all went on far beyond their sell-by dates, relying on their reputations rather than their performances.HS

No doubt, but I won't have a word said against Moiseiwitsch in his prime. As for Schnabel's compositions, the ever waspish Stravinsky had this to say in response to Peter Heyworth's book on the pianist:-

"To me, 'Schnabel the Creator' is a tenuous proposition and in the old word-association game, his masterpiece, the Duodecimet, would only make me say 'ulcers'. (Letter to The Observer, 1961.)

[ahinton]

No doubt, but I won't have a word said against Moiseiwitsch in his prime. As for Schnabel's compositions, the ever waspish Stravinsky had this to say in response to Peter Heyworth's book on the pianist:-

"To me, 'Schnabel the Creator' is a tenuous proposition and in the old word-association game, his masterpiece, the Duodecimet, would only make me say 'ulcers'. (Letter to The Observer, 1961.)

Grateful as I am for your posting of this, it nevertheless reminds me of just how quickly Stravinsky's time-dishonoured waspishness becomes tiresome; it reminds me of Sorabji's barb about what he perceived as the more egregiously invasive of musical lexicographers, namely "insects that are merely noisome like to think that they can also sting" (which, in a different but readily identifiable context, was neatly paraphrased by a certain Sorabji scholar and editor of my acquaintance - who shall remain nameless - as "tenors that are merely noisome like to think that they can also sing")...

[amateur51]

Moisevitch, Iturbi, Malcuszinsky, Schnabel. They all went on far beyond their sell-by dates, relying on their reputations rather than their performances. I recall hearing a concerto (I think it was Tchaikovsky Nº 1) played by Artur Schnabel and remarking that it sounded as if he was wearing boxing gloves! The arrival on the scene of such as Julius Katchen and Emil Gilels brought in a new standard of performance and our own native soloists, such as Peter Katin, John Ogden, John Lill, Stephen Bishop were the forerunners of piano playing excellence in this country. (and don't forget the ladies - Myra Hess, Moura Lympany, Valerie Tryon, Nina Milkina)

As for Schnabel's compositions, nothing is heard of them these days which is evidence in itself. I wonder if our friend Roehr has any recordings of Schnabel's "ouvre"?

HS

I think Stephen Kovacevich (as Stephen Bishop is now, and for some time, known) would be rather surprised to be termed a native player, whatever one of those might be

If it's boxing gloves playing you want, you should have been to some of the performance I attended by Clifford Curzon, a Schnabel pupil of course. But like Schnabel he could play like a god on other days.

It is one of my ambitions to own the recent remasterings by Andrew Rose of Schnabel's ground-breaking recordings of Beethoven piano sonatas.

One man's meat, etc

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I recall hearing a concerto (I think it was Tchaikovsky Nº 1) played by Artur Schnabel and remarking that it sounded as if he was wearing boxing gloves!

Not likely to be the Tchaikovsky, HS - Schnabel never performed anything later than Schumann after 1930.

As for Schnabel's compositions, nothing is heard of them these days which is evidence in itself.

But "evidence" of what? If "nothing is heard of them", how can they be judged? Not much is is heard nowadays of Leopold Spinner, but he's a damn finer composer than this neglect would suggest. Schnabel's Music at least has the advantage of being recorded (thanks to the sterling efforts of violinist and conductor Paul Zukofsky) - evidence in itself that someone disagrees with you, HS: somebody who knows the Music. If not earth-changing, it's pretty good: better than the works that I know by Furtwangler and/or Klemperer (and/or Sargent and Barbirolli's compositions )

I wonder if our friend Roehr has any recordings of Schnabel's "ouvre"?

I have the Symphonies, and there's this Violin Sonata on youTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_alhwz3MC2k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7YGB0j5mSU

... and this rather splendid Quartet movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjtOvJtM2k

[amateur51]

Not likely to be the Tchaikovsky, HS - Schnabel never performed anything later than Schumann after 1930.


But "evidence" of what? If "nothing is heard of them", how can they be judged? Not much is is heard nowadays of Leopold Spinner, but he's a damn finer composer than this neglect would suggest. Schnabel's Music at least has the advantage of being recorded (thanks to the sterling efforts of violinist and conductor Paul Zukofsky) - evidence in itself that someone disagrees with you, HS: somebody who knows the Music. If not earth-changing, it's pretty good: better than the works that I know by Furtwangler and/or Klemperer (and/or Sargent and Barbirolli's compositions )


I have the Symphonies, and there's this Violin Sonata on youTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_alhwz3MC2k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7YGB0j5mSU

... and this rather splendid Quartet movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjtOvJtM2k

Many thanks ferney - it did rather surprise me to hear of Schnabel's apparently playing Tchaikovsky.

I know nothing of Schnabel as a composer and I'll certainly listen to these links. Do you think that the accompanying paintings are by Schnabel too?

[Hornspieler]

Not likely to be the Tchaikovsky, HS - Schnabel never performed anything later than Schumann after 1930.


But "evidence" of what? If "nothing is heard of them", how can they be judged? Not much is is heard nowadays of Leopold Spinner, but he's a damn finer composer than this neglect would suggest. Schnabel's Music at least has the advantage of being recorded (thanks to the sterling efforts of violinist and conductor Paul Zukofsky) - evidence in itself that someone disagrees with you, HS: somebody who knows the Music. If not earth-changing, it's pretty good: better than the works that I know by Furtwangler and/or Klemperer (and/or Sargent and Barbirolli's compositions )


I have the Symphonies, and there's this Violin Sonata on youTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_alhwz3MC2k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7YGB0j5mSU

... and this rather splendid Quartet movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJjtOvJtM2k

Well smack my wrist! But thank you for the information.

HS

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Do you think that the accompanying paintings are by Schnabel too?

According to youTube, "Art by Helen Frankenthaler", ami.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well smack my wrist!

Only very gently, HS: Season of goodwill and all that!

[amateur51]

According to youTube, "Art by Helen Frankenthaler", ami.

I enjoyed them - many thanks ferney!

[antongould]

This is why I asked my previous question about the context of the quotation: I was taught never to ascribe the opinions of a fictional character to the character's author. It may be that Bennett wishes to make that character's seemingly-erudite superficiality clear to the audience. Or, of course, the character may be praising Sargent at Barbirolli's expense; suggesting that s/he thinks that Sargent allows the Music to speak for itself rather than the "emotional interventionist" attitude of Barbirolli.

In other words, from Bennett's point of view, the quotation isn't a comment on the two conductors or even on Music itself, but on the character who speaks it.

I stand admonished dear sir - I shall never do this again and next time I'll check the spelling in my titles too