Is Mr. Bennett Right About Somthing

[antongould]

I know Alan Bennett has caused a little debate hereabouts recently ....but I wondered if anyone had any views on the following lines taken from his new production?

".....it is Barbirolli who touches the heart and serves the music, unlike Sargent who merely presents it".?

[antongould]

Apologies I am sure AB's spelling is better than mine in the title

[ahinton]

I know Alan Bennett has caused a little debate hereabouts recently ....but I wondered if anyone had any views on the following lines taken from his new production?

".....it is Barbirolli who touches the heart and serves the music, unlike Sargent who merely presents it".?

I don't know, but it does make me wonder whether Beecham's description of Karajan as "a kind of musical Malcolm Sargent" may have had its origins in something similar. I think that this accusation against Sargent, whilst understandable, is also unreasonable, for although there were times when he could seem merely to "go through the motions" of a work and do little beyond conveying to his audience a sense of "here it is - it's up to you what you make of it" (and one particular recorded account of Elgar's Second Symphony strikes me as a dismayingly glaring example of this), that was not how Sargent always worked and I remember in particular a Saturday morning at Maida Vale Studios in which he conducted a performance of Shostakovich's Eleventh Symphony that fair leapt off the page and was so compelling throughout that one almost felt as though taken over entirely by the music and his conducting of it.

[salymap]

I must stick up for Sargent, who was as good a conductor as the three B's[Boult, Barbirolli and Beecham] but perhaps had to really 'feel' the music he was conducting and had off days. So did the sainted JB who, when I sat near the front of the arena in the RAH in a non-prom concert nearly blastedme out ofmy seat with the balance, where the brass of the Halle drowned out everything else. I expect he wasn't used to the acoustics but it was not enjoyable at all.

I would say Sir Adrian was the most reliable of the four, but Sargent and Beecham shared the characteristic of needing to really feel the music in their bones and perhaps it showed.
IMHO Sargent was usually good/very good in Sibelius, Elgar,Shosto, Dvorak, RVW, and several other composers.
Beecham was brilliant in lots of things but had his blind spots.
And of course no one could better Sargent with an amateur choir. As Beecham said he made the b*ggers sing

[antongould]

Many thanks ahinton and Lady Sidcup for two, IMHO, wonderful posts.

[salymap]

Many thanks ahinton and Lady Sidcup for two, IMHO, wonderful posts.

Thanks for that, Lord Tyne&Wear.

[Pabmusic]

Many thanks ahinton and Lady Sidcup for two, IMHO, wonderful posts.

Seconded! Sargent was more used to amateurs (choirs, at least) than the three Bs - quite a different kettle of fish from professionals.

[aeolium]

IMHO Sargent was usually good/very good in Sibelius, Elgar,Shosto, Dvorak, RVW, and several other composers.

Yes, salymap. It shouldn't be forgotten that he recorded the Beethoven concertos with Schnabel in pretty decent versions, particularly nos 1 & 2, and also several Mozart concertos with Schnabel. He's also very good in G&S imo. Some conductors (perhaps most) just have more of an affinity with certain composers.

[salymap]

Yes, salymap. It shouldn't be forgotten that he recorded the Beethoven concertos with Schnabel in pretty decent versions, particularly nos 1 & 2, and also several Mozart concertos with Schnabel. He's also very good in G&S imo. Some conductors (perhaps most) just have more of an affinity with certain composers.

Yes, and he was often requested as conductor by the soloists. Those Beethoven/Schnabel recordings were still around in 1947 when I started taking a real interest in buying records.

[ahinton]

Yes, salymap. It shouldn't be forgotten that he recorded the Beethoven concertos with Schnabel in pretty decent versions, particularly nos 1 & 2, and also several Mozart concertos with Schnabel.

I remember those; it was Schnabel, not Sargent, with whom I had a real problem there - a tiresome and often quite sloppy pianist and the adulation heaped upon him has always been as much of a matter of puzzlement for me as has the relative sidelining of him as a composer - and he was a far better composer than he was a pianist, IMHO.

He's also very good in G&S imo.

Whilst that is undoubtedly true, I'd not regard it as a virtue...

Some conductors (perhaps most) just have more of an affinity with certain composers.

Of course! For a living example, one has only to think of Segerstam in Sibelius and Nielsen...

[salymap]

I remember those; it was Schnabel, not Sargent, with whom I had a real problem there - a tiresome and often quite sloppy pianist and the adulation heaped upon him has always been as much of a matter of puzzlement for me as has the relative sidelining of him as a composer - and he was a far better composer than he was a pianist, IMHO.


Whilst that is undoubtedly true, I'd not regard it as a virtue...


Of course! For a living example, one has only to think of Segerstam in Sibelius and Nielsen...

The 'friendship' with Schnabel in the '30s lead to MS being askd to perform one of his symphonies.

Well done you as you appreciate Schnabel's works. Suffice to say that Schnabel stood beside Malcolm at rehearsal, the orchestra did not appreciate the work and, as orchestras do, showed their disapproval by shuffling and muttering. A few of us at the rehearsal, sitting in G block stalls, sadly got rather giggly and Schnabel talked on and on. I didn't stay for the performance and can't remember the orchestra but probably in the 1950s.

[aeolium]

I remember those; it was Schnabel, not Sargent, with whom I had a real problem there - a tiresome and often quite sloppy pianist and the adulation heaped upon him has always been as much of a matter of puzzlement for me as has the relative sidelining of him as a composer - and he was a far better composer than he was a pianist, IMHO.

I don't agree with what you say here (at least the first part; I don't know Schnabel's compositions so cannot comment on the second). His playing in some works is for me quite memorable: the Mozart sonata K570, some of the Beethoven sonatas like the witty op 31 no 1, the Schubert D major sonata D850. It's true his technique was flawed compared with many of today's pianists, but he made up for it in musical understanding.

Whilst that is undoubtedly true, I'd not regard it as a virtue...

No, but others would. There is a skill in playing light music well, and by no means all conductors can master it (some might think it not worth playing, but if it is to be played, then it should be played well).

[salymap]

Agree completely with you aeolium

[ahinton]

I don't agree with what you say here (at least the first part; I don't know Schnabel's compositions so cannot comment on the second). His playing in some works is for me quite memorable: the Mozart sonata K570, some of the Beethoven sonatas like the witty op 31 no 1, the Schubert D major sonata D850. It's true his technique was flawed compared with many of today's pianists, but he made up for it in musical understanding.

Never mind today;'s pianists - Schnabel's facility often sounded well short of that of some of his own contemporaries. I was well put off Beethoven's Les Adieux for years on account of having heard Schnabel playing it before hearing anyone else do so. Most people don't seem to be especially familiar with Schnabel's own music, which is a great pity, I think; his career as a pianist perhaps conspired to stand in the way of it in a manner which is unusual among composer/pianists and I think that this may at least in part be down to the fact that the repertoire for which Schnabel the pianist was long known is a very different kettle of fish to his own work as a composer in ways that one could never say of, for example, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Medtner, Busoni or Godowsky.

No, but others would. There is a skill in playing light music well, and by no means all conductors can master it (some might think it not worth playing, but if it is to be played, then it should be played well).

Yes, of course there is; I just don't happen to care for G&S personally, having a preference for a G&T.

[handsomefortune]

I know Alan Bennett has caused a little debate hereabouts recently ....but I wondered if anyone had any views on the following lines taken from his new production?

".....it is Barbirolli who touches the heart and serves the music, unlike Sargent who merely presents it".?

i give in! 'Is Mr. Bennett Right About Somthing'? i'm not sure he's that bothered about only 'being in the right'.

ab's probably being typically provocative!

ab thoroughly enjoys causing discussion. it sometimes seems that opinions about an answer are largely irrelevant, but how an opinion is arrived at is the all important part. a bit like 'showing your workings out' in a maths test!

i have no knowledge of barbirolli and/or sargent, therefore have no opinion, but as an ab fan, i just thought i'd stick my oar in, especially as ab got a roasting recently on this forum. i was trying to imagine what ab's response would be had he read the relevant thread, and decided he'd probably take it on the chin, especially as it amounts to a question of taste.