The changing face of Britain

[Pabmusic]

Britain has had a 'changing face' for centuries, with new people arriving. In the past it was mostly by conquest.

True at the beginning of your statement, but not at the end. Most immigrants were workers - Hugenots in the 16th Century (silk weaving, gun-making and clock-making), Irish navvies in the 18th and 19th Centuries for the canals and railways, Jewish tailors in the 19th Century, Pakistani, Bangladeshi and Cypriot tailors in the 20th Century. Italians (often caterers and ice-cream makers) in the 19th and 20th Centuries - many settling around Glasgow. People from the Caribbean in the 1950s and 60s to work on the buses.

Even in earlier times, it was rarely by conquest. The Anglo-Saxons were mainly farmers, and there's no clear evidence of 'King Arthur'-style resistance against an 'invasion' that covered three centuries. It's more likely that they just turned up one day in your area, and you either accepted it and learned to live with them, or you moved away. The Danes were less peaceful, of course. But even then, no-one's yet found much evidence of widespread violence beyond obvious coastal raids.

Most true invasions have been about overthrowing the current leader, rather than taking land for 'foreigners'. There have been at least 18 successful invasions of Britain since 1066 - not something we're usually told. The last was in 1688, when Dutch troops mounted guard at Whitehall for months.

[teamsaint]

Enough reasonably priced housing for people at all income levels would make our country a much better place to live in.
Any problems are largely down to resources, rather than racial mix.
Resource issues are caused by the greedy elites.

[Pabmusic]

Enough reasonably priced housing for people at all income levels would make our country a much bette place to live in.
Any problems are largely down to resources, rather than racial mix.
Resource issues are aused by the greedy elites.

How true.

[MrGongGong]

Adoptive father from Tranmere, mother from Wallasey.

What does that make me?

my long lost sister ?

posh scouse , scally or the missing member of Half Man Half Biscuit ?

[Ferretfancy]

How true.

Governments have been hammering on about wage inflation since the 1960s, but the damage caused by property inflation has been largely ignored. We need a much larger and affordable rented sector. I am accidentally one of the greedy elite, since my property which cost £10,000 in 1968 is now worth hundreds of thousands. I did not aim for this, I think it's insane. It is now virtually impossible for first time buyers to find an affordable home in London, and the word "home" is significant because people are not encouraged to look at the long term , but are led to consider property only as an investment to profit by and move on.

[teamsaint]

Having a house which has increased in value from £10k in 1968 ,which was a fair bit of money for a house back then, to many Hundreds of thousands now, doesn't make a person a member of a greedy elite.
As you suggest though, our property markets and rental sector, especially in London, are bonkers.
I was thinking more of this kind of thing.

http://www.good.is/posts/the-400-richest-americans-are-now-richer-than-the-bottom-50-percent-combined/

[Lateralthinking1]

In the early 1960s with virtually full employment, reasonable wage levels and house buying opportunities, opposition to immigration was considerable. I don't know what it was in percentage terms but nearly all of it was racist. Given all of the cultural changes since, the percentage of instinctive racists has fallen a bit. Perhaps even quite a lot. But if opposition to immigration could ever have been rife on those largely irrational cultural grounds, the scope for the percentage of it to become much higher on economic grounds is immense. Racism will occur not directly because of skin colour or language but for the indirect reason of finances.

I thought that the item on "The World at One" yesterday about Boston, Lincolnshire was extremely alarming. It suggests that there is a future of social unrest in small provincial towns. I really don't want that in any shape or form. The current policy is a dream come true for employers who want to cut wages to the bone. All they need to do is ensure that any wages they pay are very slightly higher than in other countries. We are all being held to ransom. Internationally, jobs are being created that guarantee poverty. Very obviously, one call centre of a global British company I had dealings with recently wasn't merely in India. It was in an Indian shed. In Britain, I am no more happy that six Polish people should be living in one room and being paid a pittance in cabbage fields than I would be if it were British people. I am even less happy that many of the British, white and black, can't get work at all.

[MrGongGong]

I thought that the item on "The World at One" about Boston, Lincolnshire was extremely alarming. It suggests that there is a future of social unrest in small provincial towns. The current policy is a dream come true for employers who want to cut wages to the bone. All they need to do is ensure that they are very slightly higher than in other countries..

I know Boston very well, about 20 years ago i remember staying in Lincoln and at 5am anyone could go to the Stonebow in the centre of town and be picked up by a dodgy man in a van and driven down to the flatlands to spend a day harvesting sprouts for a tiny amount of cash in hand. The gangmasters who ran things realised that they could make more money with people from other countries and the "natives" were far to lazy to get up and work that hard. Boston was always a bit of a "land that time forgot" with a rather impressive church, many of the "problems" are to do with the lack of regulation in employment as well as the lack of affordable housing (again !!!!) NOT the fact that people are prepared to come to the UK and work hard. Closet (and some not so closet !) bigots always like to latch onto genuine problems (blame someone else again !) to justify their xenophobia which solves few genuine problems.

[Lateralthinking1]

I know Boston very well, about 20 years ago i remember staying in Lincoln and at 5am anyone could go to the Stonebow in the centre of town and be picked up by a dodgy man in a van and driven down to the flatlands to spend a day harvesting sprouts for a tiny amount of cash in hand. The gangmasters who ran things realised that they could make more money with people from other countries and the "natives" were far to lazy to get up and work that hard. Boston was always a bit of a "land that time forgot" with a rather impressive church, many of the "problems" are to do with the lack of regulation in employment as well as the lack of affordable housing (again !!!!) NOT the fact that people are prepared to come to the UK and work hard. Closet (and some not so closet !) bigots always like to latch onto genuine problems (blame someone else again !) to justify their xenophobia which solves few genuine problems.

Sorry. I completely disagree.

If there are only X number of jobs and the population is increasing by Y, how is that sustainable? It isn't as if anyone believes that there will be more work in 3, 5, 10 or 20 years time but what we do know is that there will be many more graduates/school leavers.

[MrGongGong]

With which bit ?

[Lateralthinking1]

With which bit ?

Many of the "problems" are.......NOT the fact that people are prepared to come to the UK and work hard.

If all ex-pats of working age wanted to return to Britain next year, I would say no on the grounds that it was unsustainable.

[MrGongGong]

Sorry. I completely disagree.

If there are only X number of jobs and the population is increasing by Y, how is that sustainable? It isn't as if anyone believes that there will be more work in 3, 5, 10 or 20 years time but what we do know is that there will be many more graduates/school leavers.

Well jobs aren't really like that
If there are jobs in a location and people are prepared to travel to that place to work then they will (If you go to any airport or to Dover on a Sunday evening you will find lots and lots of people from the UK travelling to work in the rest of the EU !)........

in rural Lincolnshire there have traditionally been lots of jobs working on the land, it's hard, it's low paid, it's relentless and most "local" people don't want to do it ! many of the folks who DO this work are also highly trained with degrees etc etc

When folk talk about these demographics they always focus on those at the bottom end of the pay scale , what about the rest ? Teachers, Doctors , Musicians etc etc

ALSO (and I think we have been here before .........)

There was a huge fuss in the media about this time last year about schools where 75% or so of children didn't speak English as a first language and how this was a "huge problem". At the time I was working in a school with a class where 100% of the children had English as a second language , so I asked the teacher about it, she was slightly puzzled as educationally this was a huge bonus rather than a problem and one of the reasons why rich people send their children to private schools !

this is NOT to say that there aren't real problems in some places BUT to conclude that somehow this is a huge disaster is a bit daft.

[Lateralthinking1]

Well jobs aren't really like that
If there are jobs in a location and people are prepared to travel to that place to work then they will (If you go to any airport or to Dover on a Sunday evening you will find lots and lots of people from the UK travelling to work in the rest of the EU !)........

in rural Lincolnshire there have traditionally been lots of jobs working on the land, it's hard, it's low paid, it's relentless and most "local" people don't want to do it ! many of the folks who DO this work are also highly trained with degrees etc etc

When folk talk about these demographics they always focus on those at the bottom end of the pay scale , what about the rest ? Teachers, Doctors , Musicians etc etc

Not wholly unreasonable points! I do know about cabbage fields having relatives in East Kent. In fact, in one of the handful of areas of the South East that is shown on the deprivation index. And I have worked for short periods in Geneva - 26 weeks in all - so I know about that sort of jamboree too. I am also aware that like many in this area of Surrey/South London, one of the supposedly least affected by the downturn, I am now unemployable. Even in terms of Central London, the position is now this -

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/30000-apply-for-300-tube-station-staff-vacancies-7315322.html

If you are saying that a higher population will mean a greater need for teachers and doctors, I will say just one thing. Look forward to the privatisation of significant aspects of those services. The state won't be able to pay them. Personally, I don't want the privatisation of the health service at any price. I also have a view on Starbucks and the like. All the worries about jobs that will allegedly go if they are forced to pay taxes. No they won't go. Let them leave the country. The sooner the better. It will create a huge space in the market for individual English, Italian, Irish, Indian, Polish and West Indian British to run coffee shops of their own.

[Mary Chambers]

ALSO (and I think we have been here before .........)

There was a huge fuss in the media about this time last year about schools where 75% or so of children didn't speak English as a first language and how this was a "huge problem". At the time I was working in a school with a class where 100% of the children had English as a second language , so I asked the teacher about it, she was slightly puzzled as educationally this was a huge bonus rather than a problem and one of the reasons why rich people send their children to private schools !

This interests me, because if my grandson (who will start school next September) goes to his local London state infant/primary school there will be about 40% of pupils with English as a second language. I can see it's an advantage in many ways, but doesn't it take up a lot of the teachers' time? I'd like to hear the views of people with experience of it.

I don't quite understand your point about private schools.

[MrGongGong]

I don't quite understand your point about private schools.

One of the reasons why some parents send their children to private schools has been so that they gain fluency in languages , many private schools stress the international nature of the background of their students YET in state schools this is sometimes presented as a problem.
IN my experience of working in schools with children who have English as a "second" language it's NOT that they don't speak English , often they are more fluent in English than those who have only English. There are many highly educated people who bring their children up to be bilingual yet no one seems to regard this as a "problem" far from it , I know children who from a very early age spoke French at home and English outside, for example.

Of course SOME schools are good (and there's a debate about what that means as well !) and some not so good , it's far too simplistic and wrong to look at the demographics of the pupils to make a judgement about this.

and

If you are saying that a higher population will mean a greater need for teachers and doctors

Obviously, BUT I was really saying that many of the teachers, doctors etc ARE themselves immigrants to the UK (and a good thing too )