Things we didn't know about the B.B.C.

[Simon]

Indeed , what is "sensible" or even "rational" ISN'T fixed but changes with time and knowledge ........... so thinking about music for a moment, if one bases ones judgements of value or even quality on what "most people" think then Bach hardly gets a look in and Feldman is not even on the same planet , appealing to "common sense" (as a particularly daft Tory leader did a while ago) is more than a little ridiculous.

I'm afraid I don't know who "Feldman" is.

That apart, it's true that some things change with fashion and some with increased knowledge.

Equally, some things remain as true now as they have been for centuries - often these truisms are seen as "common sense".

Those with insight and intelligence have the ability to judge which belong in each category.

There are others who don't accept any absolutes at all.

[MrGongGong]

I'm afraid I don't know who "Feldman" is.

??????

I never said "fashion" ..............

[ahinton]

I'm afraid I don't know who "Feldman" is.

Well, at least you admit to your ignorance. I'll give you a clue when you look him up (as I suggested that another member should do with NMC earlier today because he likewise appeared not to know who or what that was); it's not Marty in this context.

That apart, it's true that some things change with fashion and some with increased knowledge.

And for other reasons, too.

Equally, some things remain as true now as they have been for centuries - often these truisms are seen as "common sense".

I wish that I could respond to this more effectively by remembering and quoting whoever it was that is first reckoned to have observed that common sense is a misleading term because the sense that it seeks to imply occurs far from commonly.

Those with insight and intelligence have the ability to judge which belong in each category.

There are others who don't accept any absolutes at all.

But not all such judgements are necessarily either correct or immortal, just as, for example, "there are others who don't accept" that NMC has a perfect right to do what it does and to seek funding in support thereof without any need to fear that its successes in the latter need compromise any other charitable giving...

QED.

[Simon]

Well, at least you admit to your ignorance. I'll give you a clue ...

Indeed I do. Ignorance of a particular specialist subject is no fault and admittinbg it I believe to be a strength. I've always found it sensible to admit it when one doesn't know something: that way, one learns. We all have our areas of knowledge and ignorance.

If I have time, I may follow your clue. But I suspect there are worthier subjects for my attention, if he's someone that GongGong admires...

I wish that I could respond to this more effectively by remembering and quoting whoever it was that is first reckoned to have observed that common sense is a misleading term because the sense that it seeks to imply occurs far from commonly.

It wouldn't have been a more effective reply: the quote you refer to is not deep philosophy, but just a neat word play, applicable in some situations and not others.

But not all such judgements are necessarily either correct or immortal...

Indeed. Very true. It's possible for us all to err.

[MrGongGong]

Indeed I do. Ignorance of a particular specialist subject is no fault and admittinbg it I believe to be a strength. I've always found it sensible to admit it when one doesn't know something: that way, one learns. We all have our areas of knowledge and ignorance.
.

Errrr Simon please
it's hardly a "specialist" area

I chose Feldman because it would be someone known to people who actually take an interest in music

I think you need to get your internet checked as it seems to not be working today ! (mine lets me find out about things i don't know about !)

[Simon]

Errrr Simon please
it's hardly a "specialist" area

I chose Feldman because it would be someone known to people who actually take an interest in music

I think you need to get your internet checked as it seems to not be working today ! (mine lets me find out about things i don't know about !)

I haven't looked yet! I do have other things to do you know! Though I confess it's a easy day up to now.

All I can say is that I had a high standard of classical musical education, took A level music and enjoyed pop and rock music as a teen. Still do enjoy rock! Still sing, buy and play choral/piano music and still occasionally play the organ when various places are desperate... Have nephew and niece who chatter to me quite regularly about some more modern bands. Listen to R3 quite often and go to the occasional concert when I can get.

In all that time, I never came across any Feldmans. Sorry!

[MrGongGong]

I haven't looked yet! I do have other things to do you know! Though I confess it's a easy day up to now.

All I can say is that I had a high standard of classical musical education, took A level music and enjoyed pop and rock music as a teen. Still do enjoy rock! Still sing, buy and play choral/piano music and still occasionally play the organ when various places are desperate... Have nephew and niece who chatter to me quite regularly about some more modern bands. Listen to R3 quite often and go to the occasional concert when I can get.

In all that time, I never came across any Feldmans. Sorry!

So I guess you never listen to Radio 3 then ?

[ahinton]

Indeed I do. Ignorance of a particular specialist subject is no fault and admittinbg it I believe to be a strength. I've always found it sensible to admit it when one doesn't know something: that way, one learns. We all have our areas of knowledge and ignorance.

Indeed so.

If I have time, I may follow your clue.

It would require very little time indeed for someone such as you!

It wouldn't have been a more effective reply: the quote you refer to is not deep philosophy, but just a neat word play, applicable in some situations and not others.

It would have been to the extent of identifying the source; I did not claim deep philosophical status for it but at the same time I see it neither as mere "neat word play" nor as "applicable in some situations and not others", since whoever it was that made that observation was clearly unconvinced in general terms of the validity of the notion of "common sense" as some kind of majority or universally held faculty.

Indeed. Very true. It's possible for us all to err.

Quite so. As Alexander Pope noted, "to err is human"; for the record, however, he did not also opine that it was either "reasonable or "sensible"...

[ahinton]

So I guess you never listen to Radio 3 then ?

Simon did say that he listens to it quite often, actually, but that this has not led him to discover the existence of any Feldmans; this is fair enough, since Feldman is not broadcast with especial frequency on R3, although the same could as easily be said of many thousands of other composers...

[MrGongGong]

Simon did say that he listens to it quite often, actually, but that this has not led him to discover the existence of any Feldmans; this is fair enough, since Feldman is not broadcast with especial frequency on R3, although the same could as easily be said of many thousands of other composers...

Shame isn't it
but to often express such strong views about 20th century music then claim never to have knowingly listened to Morton Feldman's music seems a little at odds !
thassorl

[ahinton]

Shame isn't it
but to often express such strong views about 20th century music then claim never to have knowingly listened to Morton Feldman's music seems a little at odds !

It does rather - but then at least you've now given away the identity of the composer concerned, thereby saving Simon a few seconds' trouble in figuring out who to look up!

[MrGongGong]

It does rather - but then at least you've now given away the identity of the composer concerned, thereby saving Simon a few seconds' trouble in figuring out who to look up!

I don't think he will find him anyway as his computer seems to be on the blink

[Flosshilde]

But most people would agree, for example, that it is "reasonable" and "sensible" and "common sense" to wear warm clothes in cold weather.

'Most people', then, doesn't include the young women - and men - who go out on the town in Glasgow in the winter (& probably in other towns and cities as well). And it didn't include young women in Jane Austen's novels. For them it's not at all 'reasonable' to wear warm clothing.

And the moral of that story is that what you think is 'reasonable' & 'sensible' is dependent on what your views are, & not on some universal, unchanging, truth.

[Simon]

'Most people', then, doesn't include the young women - and men - who go out on the town in Glasgow in the winter (& probably in other towns and cities as well). And it didn't include young women in Jane Austen's novels. For them it's not at all 'reasonable' to wear warm clothing.

And the moral of that story is that what you think is 'reasonable' & 'sensible' is dependent on what your views are, & not on some universal, unchanging, truth.

I can hardly believe I'm reading this!

Have you absolutely NO understanding whatsoever about advancing a logical argument?

I'd have more success trying to discuss genetics with a goldfish. <doh>

Edit: I bet you don't even know where you've gone wrong, do you Flossie?

[Flosshilde]

Have you absolutely NO understanding whatsoever about advancing a logical argument?

If I don't I doubt that I'll learn it from you. Claiming something is 'common sense' or 'reasonable' is to remove it from any sort of argument; it's usually the last resort of someone who has lost the argument.