Things we didn't know about the B.B.C.

[Serial_Apologist]

When people write stuff as good as that, there's no real point in saying much else.

Good!

[Sydney Grew]

. . . most of the more reasonable of us on here . . .

It would be of interest at this point to see one or two definitions of the word "reasonable."

And then, we might ask, do - in the view of "reasonable people" - "reasonable people" use the same definition as "unreasonable people" do? In other words, is there at least agreement about the definition of the word? Probably not, so we should seek out other terms - if any exist - which are intelligible to all and carry an indisputably common significance. And further - depending on the definition - it might be wise to consult the "unreasonable people" themselves.

Actually the word "ratio" was introduced as the equivalent of "logos," so we may well be asking here for the definition of the word "word" - or even for the definition of "define."

But all this talk of "rationality" is probably when all is said and done Aristotle's fault; and I feel that the time has now come - we are now mature enough and it would be better - to dump him for a few centuries and go with - adopt - Plato.

[Pabmusic]

It would be of interest at this point to see one or two definitions of the word "reasonable."....

The man on the Clapham omnibus?

[Resurrection Man]

The post is only as "aggressive" as you want it to be. My "opinion" being of a different kind altogether to that which Simon expresses, it can be neither better nor worse. Opinions in the guise of value judgements are one thing; personal tastes parading as such opinions are quite another. If Simon doesn't want to make a donation to NMC, that's fine. If others do, so's that. For him to suggest that certain British composers represented on NMC are as he describes them, however, is quite another matter and, if taken seriously, suggests the gross undermining of the tireless sterling work done over many years by the mastermind behind that label - a composer who, incidentally, has only a very small amount of his own work on it - in the cause of new and recent British music.

NMC? I have no idea who or what you are referring to. I can find no reference to it in this thread.

Having read your reply I had to go back and double-check exactly what it was that you had said. I also double-checked what the English definition of 'opinion' was and it is clear that your definition and mine (and as far as I can see the generally held consensus of what 'opinion' is) are poles apart. Not to worry. I have better things to do then argue the number of angels on a pinhead.

[ahinton]

The man on the Clapham omnibus?

If so, then might it be "reasonable" to presume that there'll be another busload of them along in a minute? - or that there aren't any of them for ages and then a lot of them come along at once? Incidentally, I've often wondered in this context about the reason behind the choice of Clapham - and the following - http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqu...,-2012,00.html - really doesn't help. That said, is it "reasonable" to expect that every person desiring to catch a bus to of from Clapham must first be able to afford an Oyster card? and, if so, are oysters themselves "reasonable"? And might this expression of dubious origin be expected to drop out of common parlance when buses no longer ply their trade to and from Clapham?

So many questions, so little time to answer them. I suppose that what Simon might mean by his use of the term is people who are "able" at "reason"ing, though I remain to be convinced that all such people could necessarily be depended upon to arrive at the correct conclusions on every occasion upon which they exercise their reasoning ability; whether or not my supposition is correct, however, it might be argued by some who have frequented these and other boards for longer than have some others that all that really matters here is that "reasonable" is not being trotted out as a synonym for "sensible"...

[ahinton]

NMC? I have no idea who or what you are referring to. I can find no reference to it in this thread.

Then you are looking in the wrong thread - and, in any case, the fact that you appear not to have heard of NMC does you little credit as a member of a forum whose principal subject is music and the fact that you seem unable to deduce what it might be from my post from which you quote does you less still. Never mind; look it up and, in the meantime, I'll give you four clues to help you; Holst Foundation, Colin Matthews, new and recent British music, recordings. Now - once you've finally figured out what NMC is and does, it shoulrequire little additional effort on your part to locate the thread in which Simon made some quite unwarrantable remarks about an appeal for funds that NMC has launched. "QED", as Simon himself might say.

Having read your reply I had to go back and double-check exactly what it was that you had said. I also double-checked what the English definition of 'opinion' was and it is clear that your definition and mine (and as far as I can see the generally held consensus of what 'opinion' is) are poles apart.

It might be clear to you, but I am less than convinced that "the generally held consensus of what 'opinion' is" is synonymous with your evident inability, unwillingness or both to distinguish between an opinion that reflects someone's personal likes and dislikes and one that purports to represent a value judgement with an inbuilt assumption that it is a "generally accepted consensus"; your prerogative, of course, just as it is mine to question it.

Not to worry. I have better things to do then argue the number of angels on a pinhead.

By "then" I presume you to mean "than", but I suspect that a Resurrection Man would in any case know far more about angels, whether or not on pinheads, than I do so, to that extent at least, I defer to your superior knowledge.

[Flosshilde]

your definition and mine (and as far as I can see the generally held consensus of what 'opinion' is) are poles apart.

Does this mean that there are (in RM's opinion) three definitions of 'opinion' - 1) Ahinton's; 2) RM's; and 3) "the generally held consensus of what 'opinion' is".

Or does RM equate "the generally held consensus of what 'opinion' is" with his own definition? (which he doesn't bother to explain).

And if the latter, isn't that always the case?

[MrGongGong]

Folk who do the "I looked it up in the dictionary so I must be right" thing hardly have any credibility IMV
neither do those (mentioning no names of course) who do the
"common sense tells us" or "sensible" or even "reasonable" thing....... i'm no linguist (over to you FF ? ) but these are hardly phrases with a shared understanding

(like the words "Music" and "noise" and "discord" )

[Simon]

"common sense tells us" or "sensible" or even "reasonable" thing...... these are hardly phrases with a shared understanding

You are right in the sense that a few oddballs sometimes depart from the normally accepted views. In addition the the purely perverse, I expect there have always been those who prefer to fight the tide or go against the grain, and sometimes, I'm sure, their contributions to life have been magnificent and even heroic.

But most people would agree, for example, that it is "reasonable" and "sensible" and "common sense" to wear warm clothes in cold weather. The fact that a few people like to jump into icy ponds for fun doesn't negate this.

A radical relativist would not agree, but the concepts of sense and rationality do have a place and are useful oilers of society's wheels.

[MrGongGong]

You are right in the sense that a few oddballs sometimes depart from the normally accepted views.

I always thought that Galileo had a valid point myself .......

[Simon]

Absolutely - see the rest of my post for precisely that point.

[MrGongGong]

Absolutely - see the rest of my post for precisely that point.

Indeed , what is "sensible" or even "rational" ISN'T fixed but changes with time and knowledge ........... so thinking about music for a moment, if one bases ones judgements of value or even quality on what "most people" think then Bach hardly gets a look in and Feldman is not even on the same planet , appealing to "common sense" (as a particularly daft Tory leader did a while ago) is more than a little ridiculous.

[amateur51]

Then you are looking in the wrong thread - and, in any case, the fact that you appear not to have heard of NMC does you little credit as a member of a forum whose principal subject is music and the fact that you seem unable to deduce what it might be from my post from which you quote does you less still. Never mind; look it up and, in the meantime, I'll give you four clues to help you; Holst Foundation, Colin Matthews, new and recent British music, recordings. Now - once you've finally figured out what NMC is and does, it shoulrequire little additional effort on your part to locate the thread in which Simon made some quite unwarrantable remarks about an appeal for funds that NMC has launched. "QED", as Simon himself might say.


It might be clear to you, but I am less than convinced that "the generally held consensus of what 'opinion' is" is synonymous with your evident inability, unwillingness or both to distinguish between an opinion that reflects someone's personal likes and dislikes and one that purports to represent a value judgement with an inbuilt assumption that it is a "generally accepted consensus"; your prerogative, of course, just as it is mine to question it.


By "then" I presume you to mean "than", but I suspect that a Resurrection Man would in any case know far more about angels, whether or not on pinheads, than I do so, to that extent at least, I defer to your superior knowledge.

Wow! I'd say that ahinton's had a couple of strong Monsoon Malabars this lunchtime

[ahinton]

Wow! I'd say that ahinton's had a couple of strong Monsoon Malabars this lunchtime

If only! I haven't had time for either lunch or a Monsoon Malabar! That doesn't alter that fact that you'd say so, of course, although I take leave to doubt that your assumption would attain "generally held consensus" status (not that you're claiming that it might, of course!), even though, at the same time, having a couple of those things could very well be quite widely regarded as "sensible" and/or "reasonable".

I wonder if our Rolling Stone member has yet discovered for himself that NMC stands for Nice Music's Contemporary? Arguably, it could as easily stand for Not Much Colin, but it doesn't.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

aha