Does the disenfranchisement of UK prisoners make them all Political prisoners?

[ahinton]

I meant people other than those who have expressed views already. That is what I meant by now. They have not been prevented from doing so but some might be dissuaded by another dozen contributions from me or anyone else.

That's my decision on what I am doing. Everyone else can decide what is appropriate from their point of view. In any case, I hope to be going for a walk and a meal somewhere later and also have a light fitting to fix.

Thank you for that. Enjoy your day, which I trust you will find illuminating and enlightening.

In the meantime, perhaps the most pragmatic and non-side-taking answer to the question posed in this thread is that, whether or not such disenfranchisement makes all prisoners political ones, it is in any case wrong in principle in all instances other than those where prisoners have specifically been convicted of electoral fraud; the reason for this is that, if that disenfranchisement has no direct connection with the crime committed by the prisoner, it has no business to be imposed and therefore represents a withdrawal of a fundamental human right that has no credible place as part of a punishment for the crime concerned.

David Cameron stated some time ago that the prospect of restoring prisoner's voting rights made him feel sick; shall we therefore all have a whip-round to buy him some sick bags in advance of the overturning of this regrettable blot on the British judicial landscape?

[MrGongGong]

David Cameron stated some time ago that the prospect of restoring prisoner's voting rights made him feel sick; shall we therefore all have a whip-round to buy him some sick bags in advance of the overturning of this regrettable blot on the British judicial landscape?

David Cameron makes me feel sick but I don't expect him to care about that at all , and given his pathological empathy bypass i'm rather pleased that he does feel that way

[Pabmusic]

and as for America....

Yes. Approximately 20% of all known prisoners worldwide are in the USA.

[french frank]

Lateral, the following countries all allow prisoners to vote - Australia, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Israel, Japan, Kenya, Netherlands, Norway, Peru, Poland, Romania, Serbia, Sweden, Zimbabwe and Hong Kong. How come they can cope with out any problem, but the UK couldn't?

There's an interesting practical point. I would have thought it was much easier to allow prisoners to vote than to prevent them.

No one is allowed to vote unless they are on the/an electoral register. Anyone who fills in the registration form can include the name of a prisoner normally resident at that address. Anyone on the register can apply for a proxy vote, so they don't need to have a ballot paper posted c/o HMP. I would have thought it was administratively more difficult to ensure this does not happen than simply to allow prisoners a vote in their home constituency.

I don't think it would breach human rights to specify certain crimes which would deny the offender the right to vote - whether the criminal was imprisoned for the crime or not (esp. electoral fraud).

[Pabmusic]

...I don't think it would breach human rights to specify certain crimes which would deny the offender the right to vote - whether the criminal was imprisoned for the crime or not (esp. electoral fraud).

In effect, this is what the ECHR said. They did not say we had to allow prisoners to vote; they said we breached the Convention by imposing a blanket ban on any convicted prisoner voting.

[scottycelt]

Yes. Approximately 20% of all known prisoners worldwide are in the USA.

That is a staggering number ... is there any information around of how many there may be in, say, China, even a 'guesstimate' ... ?

[Hornspieler]

There's an interesting practical point. I would have thought it was much easier to allow prisoners to vote than to prevent them.

No one is allowed to vote unless they are on the/an electoral register. Anyone who fills in the registration form can include the name of a prisoner normally resident at that address. Anyone on the register can apply for a proxy vote, so they don't need to have a ballot paper posted c/o HMP. I would have thought it was administratively more difficult to ensure this does not happen than simply to allow prisoners a vote in their home constituency.

I don't think it would breach human rights to specify certain crimes which would deny the offender the right to vote - whether the criminal was imprisoned for the crime or not (esp. electoral fraud).

At last the voice of reason! Thank you, FF.

Perhaps some message boarders who have already stated their position on this topic (and one of them at least repeatedly and annoyingly) will put a sock in it.

HS

.... and possibly have something worthwhile to contribute to the output of Radio 3? Or don't they "do" music?

[Pabmusic]

That is a staggering number ... is there any information around of how many there may be in, say, China, even a 'guesstimate' ... ?

Yes, it is staggering. The figure in the US is about 2.3m and represents 737 per 100,000 of population. This gives the 2008 position (I don't have anything more recent):

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The China figure is about 1.6m (118 per 100,000), but that does not include political prisoners, about whom China is very shy. So the true figure isn't known.

Here's some BBC info that shows the UK situation. I can't see what the date is though, and the figures aren't an exact match, but the picture tallies well enough:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn2page1.stm

[teamsaint]

At last the voice of reason! Thank you, FF.

Perhaps some message boarders who have already stated their position on this topic (and one of them at least repeatedly and annoyingly) will put a sock in it.

HS

.... and possibly have something worthwhile to contribute to the output of Radio 3? Or don't they "do" music?

Its a thread about prisoners' voting rights on a general board.
As far as I can see all of the contributors to this thread contribute on music too, though I don't think that is an actual stipulation of being a member !

"Putting a sock in it" ....I thought the point of a discussion forum was to discuss different points of view.
This particular issue is tricky..worth mulling over...one where we might learn from the views and experiences of others.Isn't it?

[french frank]

Perhaps some message boarders who have already stated their position on this topic (and one of them at least repeatedly and annoyingly) will put a sock in it.

I hadn't noticed anything particularly annoying about the contributions here (though I disagree with some).

Members aren't required to post about music (Radio 3 is wider in scope than that) and I don't know that any of the present members confine themselves to political discussions. But those who aren't interested in exchanging views on political issues or current affairs should probably stick to other topics. We ought all to be interested in what other people say, if for no other reason than that it tells us so much about them.

[Flosshilde]

Thank you for the information but that is up to them. It is probably the case in Scandinavia that all prisoners are studying for qualifications in classrooms, have career advisers and all kinds of anti-discriminatory laws on their release.

Quite possibly - if that's the case then their prison system is rather more enlightened than ours, & probably has a lower re-offending rate.

But it's not a response I would have expected from you, Lateral; rather what I would expect from Simon or Scotty.

[Simon]

But it's not a response I would have expected from you, Lateral; rather what I would expect from Simon or Scotty.

That's not very affable, if I may say so. Lat's contributions are generally logical and valid - and certainly always interesting - and I think that Scotty and I would agree with most of them. Why should his making a rational and sensible comment be so unexpected to you?

[scottycelt]

But it's not a response I would have expected from you, Lateral; rather what I would expect from Simon or Scotty.

Welcome to the rock-bottom of politically-unacceptable forum opinion, Lateral ...

[Flosshilde]

That's not very affable, if I may say so. Lat's contributions are generally logical and valid - and certainly always interesting - and I think that Scotty and I would agree with most of them. Why should his making a rational and sensible comment be so unexpected to you?

I think that it was the supercillious & dismissive tone that made me think of you.

[Simon]

I think that it was the supercillious & dismissive tone that made me think of you.

Now that's better, Flossie! Nice reply! I give you that point, willingly!