Sistema Scotland

[ahinton]

The evidence from Venezuala is that it fulfils its aims, & although there is a risk of transferring something into another environment & expecting it to work as well there, there is some evidence that it is working in Scotland (again, what's happening in England isn't my concern). I do know something about Raploch and Govanhill, & believe me they need anything they can get. I think (from past posts) that one of your concerns is that it will divert funding from conventional musical education & youth orchestras; I don't know if that is happening here but it is certain that the children, and their families, involved in Big Noise would never have dreamed of being involved in them, so even by that narrow criteria the scheme has been a huge success. Why dismiss something that is being successful on both social and musical grounds?

Why indeed? Not only that, but if it is ultimately successful in Scotland, at least some of the money thereby saved could well be diverted into musical education per se (I'm not saying that it would be, of course - only that it could be).

Using music as a social engineering tool is not to be sneered at and helps to illustrate and endorse some of what a variety of great minds have had to say about music over the years.

[MrGongGong]

I'm not "dismissing" at all
but as (which is one of the big problems with this whole thing) it seems to be impossible to have any critique there seems little point in discussing it any more.
The constant "England isn't my concern" is ridiculous IMV , since when was Scotland an Island ?
Maybe if some of the advocates for this learnt a bit about the history of Community Arts in the UK (which INCLUDES Scotland ) they would learn a few things ........ but I doubt it

[Flosshilde]

No, Scotland isn't an island, but it does have a seperate government which has its own education, health & social welfare policies, which are radically different from England's (and becoming even more different). You visit, I live here, & have connections with the two communities involved in Big Noise.

I do know something about community arts programmes; I'm not aware of anything that has the same type of life-long programme that Big Noise has.

I'm not sure what your argument against it is, but it seems to that it isn't what it never set out to be - the primary aim is not to produce orchestral musicians, but to improve the life chances of children in some of the most deprived areas of the UK. So far in Scotland it would appear to be working & doing what it was intended to do, and must, on that basis, be a valuable initiative.

[MrGongGong]

I'm not sure what your argument against it is, but it seems to that it isn't what it never set out to be - the primary aim is not to produce orchestral musicians, but to improve the life chances of children in some of the most deprived areas of the UK. So far in Scotland it would appear to be working & doing what it was intended to do, and must, on that basis, be a valuable initiative.

Why not try reading what I (and others ) have written ?

I have never suggested that it was about "producing orchestral musicians" BUT one of my (and many others) criticisms is that (and Chris Small is much more eloquent than I on this !) the orchestral "model" isn't necessarily the best one for engaging people in musical processes. WHICH AGAIN is NOT to say that orchestras are a "bad" thing , given what I spend most of my working life doing that would be a bit ridiculous ...............and before the "it's not about music" thing , I would argue that the QUALITY of musical experiences that we create for ALL the people we work with is really important (which is what Zoe was touching on in her blog)........

Time and time again this project is waved in front of the media as some kind of beacon of hope in a barren wasteland
as I said before i'm sure there are some wonderful things happening BUT to have something that is so closed to critical thinking is rather naive.

[Flosshilde]

Why not try reading what I (and others ) have written ?

I have, & am still not sure. Your next sentence -

I have never suggested that it was about "producing orchestral musicians" BUT one of my (and many others) criticisms is that (and Chris Small is much more eloquent than I on this !) the orchestral "model" isn't necessarily the best one for engaging people in musical processes.

confirms my belief that you are criticising it for not being what it was never intended to be. Its primary aim is, I believe, NOT to 'engage people in musical processes', but to use a particular model of music making to engage people in collaboration, co-operation, working together to achieve a common goal, to develop a sense of discipline and focus, and a sense of self-belief and achievement - all things lacking in their lives.

I would argue that the QUALITY of musical experiences that we create for ALL the people we work with is really important (which is what Zoe was touching on in her blog)........

She was very dismissive of what she experienced - possibly rightly so. But what she experienced was a one-day event which couldn't possibly replicate the experience of the Sistema programme; and were Sistema Scotland & Big Noise Raploch represented at the event? Fro what you have said the English & Scottish programmes are very different.

to have something that is so closed to critical thinking is rather naive.

How open are you to it? You have consistently argued against it, on rather dubious grounds.

[MrGongGong]

How open are you to it? You have consistently argued against it, on rather dubious grounds.

I am very open to it
a good friend of mine who plays in one of the UK's major Orchestras has spent most of his summer breaks in Venezuela working on the original project which sounds wonderful.
To do the "it works there , so must work everywhere" conclusion is more than a little naive
and furthermore to say that criticism of musical processes are "dubious grounds" is a bit suspect IMV

one of the reasons that I (along with several others) parted company with some Community Music Organisations in the 1990's was that it seemed that there was too much "armchair social work" going on and not enough engagement with music as a creative and dynamic artform that DOES have power.

you might think that Music was "Dubious" personally I think its rather wonderful

[Flosshilde]

To do the "it works there , so must work everywhere" conclusion is more than a little naive

If you read my post again you'll see that I did say that there are risks in transplanting ideas from one environment to another.

and furthermore to say that criticism of musical processes are "dubious grounds" is a bit suspect IMV


you might think that Music was "Dubious" personally I think its rather wonderful

Now you're just being silly, as that's quite clearly not what I said.

[subcontrabass]

Are there signs of some broader interest in music education in Scotland? See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20748377