Sistema Scotland (Big Noise) has launched its second project in Govanhill in Glasgow. The Scottish Government has allocated over £1.25 million funding over 4 years, coming from the health, education & culture budgets.
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Not MrGG's absolutely favourite project, but for others it's a definite
It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world. -
The article I saw in the Herald (which I haven't linked to) mentioned research into the impact of Big Noise Raploch. It would be interesting to see it.Comment
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It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.Comment
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I would imagine that that is the reserch referred to - I don't expect that they would have carried out more since then. It does sound very positive, & I look forward to it achieveing similar outcomes in Govanhill - a different sort of area, as it has a high immigrant & minority ethnic population ¤tly is one of the main areas where Roma are housed. It's been extremely difficult to engage the Roma children (& adults) in formal education, for example.
(sorry about using terms like 'outcomes' & 'engage', which probably belong on the 'Words & phrases that make my ...' thread)Comment
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Hang on a momentOriginally posted by Flosshilde View Post
didn't someone here go off on one when I suggested that it was a "music education" project ?
Sadly this model is spreading in a series of inappropriate projects in England that will syphon of the already stretched resources available for music education.
I'm afraid it's a case of "no shit Sherlock"
(not that there is ANYTHING AT ALL wrong with giving children an intensive and focussed musical education.........but this isn't a new idea AT ALL)
I think Tom Service's article about this (though a bit old" is still very relevant
as is Zoe Martlew
who manages to dig a bit more than the eulogising that seems to appear on this subject everywhere ....
this (along with the resulting replies from Marshall Marcus etc) is also worth reading
What bothers me and many others involved in music and education is the lack of critical thinking applied to this along with the whole "inventing the wheel" stuff............ Britten , Holst et al were doing this many years agoLast edited by MrGongGong; 17-11-12, 21:04.Comment
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I think the research that French Frank links to is reasonably critical thinking. & yes, it isn't primarily a music education project.
I've no idea what is happening in England, & it isn't really relevant. This is happening in Scotland, supported by the Scottish Government, in two very deprived areas and is having very positive benefits.
Zoe MArtlew completely misses the point - she seems to think that the day at the South Bank she thinks so little of represents what Sistema does, which it didn't & couldn't. She heads one section "Because we DID have our own brand of El Sistema. Oh yes." & then fails to demonstrate when, where, or what. She seems to be speaking from a position of ignorance.Last edited by Flosshilde; 17-11-12, 21:55.Comment
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It IS very relevant indeed (as several Scottish colleagues have also pointed out to me)Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post
Don't get me wrong, i'm not opposed to any group of young people being encouraged to participate in music in as many ways as possible
but these projects have some serious pedagogical and philosophical flaws and the ways in which they are promoted with evangelical zeal mean that valid critique is taken to be a dismissal of the whole idea of young people participating in music at all .Comment
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Sure it's not just teachers getting a bit jealous, or thinking that their way is the only way?Comment
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not at allOriginally posted by Flosshilde View Post
I think the problem is that THIS way is being promoted as the ONLY way
these projects are massively expensive and not sustainable in the long term given the attitudes of governments (and NOT just in England in my experience ) towards funding the arts and education.
I'm sure many of the CE regulars will vouch for the efficacy of an intensive music performance education when one is young, to pretend that somehow this is a new discovery is daft. Furthermore, as is happening in England, these project syphon resources from many other well established organisations (the Internationally highly regarded Sound it Out in Birmingham being a classic case in point).......
You might not agree with what she says but I would assure you that Zoe speaks from a position of huge experience and is one of the most well informed musicians I have come across.Comment
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She might be hugely experienced as a musician but does she have experience of the sort of project that Sistema/Big Noise is? I think the source of your particular prejudice about it comes across when you talk about it only in terms of arts/music & education. The fact that it results in some children being more interested in perfroming music is a by-product of its method - the primary function is, as the research ff linked to shows, to encourage parents to take more interest in their children, to bring communities together, to encourage children to have a more positive view of their lives & their future. As the reports of the extension of Big Noise into Glasgow show the funding comes from health & care budgets as well as education & culture, which indicates the objectives of the project. The evidence, in Venezuala & now in Scotland shows that it works.
You, & Zoe Martlew, say that it's been done before in the UK; where & when, & what impact did it have on the communities involved?Comment
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It isn't as though the money would necessarily be made available to alternative music projects if it didn't go to Sistema since the Government contributions have come from various budgets, including Children and Young People, Culture and External Affairs, Education and Lifelong Learning and Health and Social Care, in recognition, presumably, of the 'special needs' of the communities.It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.Comment
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Zoë Martlew makes, on the whole a very great deal of sense indeed on this. El Sistema was never primarily intended to be a means to get some kind of Western classical music kudos for Venezuela, nor was Abreu's vision (as he himself made clear) principally about hopes for musical achievements per se; it was and remains a much needed social experiment and one that has by and large been quite remarkably successful.Comment
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Yes, it's interesting that whenever there is any criticism of these projects the answer is always "well do you have any experience of them" and when the answer is "Yes" that is always dismissed.Originally posted by Flosshilde View Post
If you want to ask Zoe about what projects she has experience of she is fairly easy to find ! though I would say Yes she does.
and I seem to remember that last time this was discussed my point was missed as well
So at the risk of repeating again
I'm not "prejudiced" against it, or even "against" music projects that have social ends, in fact i've spent a large part of my working life doing precisely that in many places in the UK and Abroad in a huge range of communities including some of the ones that now have these "sistema modelled" projects.
The "evidence" as presented might show that it "works" but given that the political interest etc (look how the Henley review in England went on and on about it !) it would say that wouldn't it.
and it IS being presented as a model of music education even though there is a social dimension
why is this work seen to be above constructive critique ?
A skim reading of Music, Society, Education would quickly highlight some of the flaws in this way of thinking.Comment
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The evidence from Venezuala is that it fulfils its aims, & although there is a risk of transferring something into another environment & expecting it to work as well there, there is some evidence that it is working in Scotland (again, what's happening in England isn't my concern). I do know something about Raploch and Govanhill, & believe me they need anything they can get. I think (from past posts) that one of your concerns is that it will divert funding from conventional musical education & youth orchestras; I don't know if that is happening here but it is certain that the children, and their families, involved in Big Noise would never have dreamed of being involved in them, so even by that narrow criteria the scheme has been a huge success. Why dismiss something that is being successful on both social and musical grounds?Comment
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